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For what it's worth, here are three of my ideas re banks and money:
1) When we deposit funds into a bank account we are, in effect, loaning money to the bank. We expect something in return. We used to get interest but now it's more service related (internet banking, cash machines and debit cards are foremost). The services are nice but let's not lose sight of the fact that we are loaning the banks our money.
If you're at a Big Bank then you actually pay a monthly fee just for the "right" to have an account with them!
For example, for various reasons I need to have a TD account. I never use it normally, it gets used anywhere from twice a month to sometimes 3 months in between use, and it's quite irregular. They charge me $3.95 a month for this.
I still remember my first bank account - at National Trust (part of Scotiabank now I think) in/around 1990. My *chequing* account was earning 8% interest, and this was before all the fees started coming in.
If you're at a Big Bank then you actually pay a monthly fee just for the "right" to have an account with them!
For example, for various reasons I need to have a TD account. I never use it normally, it gets used anywhere from twice a month to sometimes 3 months in between use, and it's quite irregular. They charge me $3.95 a month for this.
I still remember my first bank account - at National Trust (part of Scotiabank now I think) in/around 1990. My *chequing* account was earning 8% interest, and this was before all the fees started coming in.
You do reaize I guess that in 1990 interest rates were quite a bit higher. Mortgages were about 12%. I don't think banks can pay out 8% on a risk free chequing account these days when mortgages are a lot less than 8%. The options are GICs and if you want to by pass the banks buy Canada Savings Bonds, lend your money directly to the government, help the economy and take the interest rate set by the government not the banks. Or simply get into the business of making personal loans with your own money and negotiate with the borrower what interest rate they will pay you.
For $3.95 you might be able to play one night a month at a chess club and maybe buy a cup of coffee, so I see what you mean.
As for chess and math being a non-profit, it is but I would tend to think it's cash flow would put a lot of other non-profits to shame.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Wednesday, 2nd May, 2012, 02:20 PM.
Let's also not forget that alot of those tax dollars are not just ours. Our banks, their dividend recipients and their shareholders that realize a capital gain pay a lot of taxes. That alone amounts to billions of tax dollars contributed to the public coffers every year. So when we say it's our tax dollars let's maybe remember where some of the taxes come from in the first place. I know it's not so popular to think of banks and their shareholders as being tax payers too but there you go.
Our Canadian banks do donate a large amount to charities, are stable and provide excellent service. However, bank profits have a heavy portion from government debts. Government debts would be greatly reduced with the IMF-supported taxes on banks and banking transactions, such as the Tobin tax or the Robin Hood tax (.05%).
You do reaize I guess that in 1990 interest rates were quite a bit higher. Mortgages were about 12%. I don't think banks can pay out 8% on a risk free chequing account these days when mortgages are a lot less than 8%.
Yes I understand that, but you virtually never even hear about a chequing account paying interest anymore much less being free at the same time.
For $3.95 you might be able to play one night a month at a chess club and maybe buy a cup of coffee, so I see what you mean.
It's more the principle of the thing. Banks in general already make a ton of money using what is deposited into them, now they have to turn around and milk you again.
Looking forward to the day when I don't have to use a big bank anymore. Right now I'm stuck dealing with 3 of them on various items!
Larry,
BMO offers free bank accounts for non-profit organizations. This includes all the fees, the cheques, everything. I know a few chess clubs who opened their account there. Maybe there would be some fees for CMA, since it is quite a big organization... But probably nothing expensive.
Our Canadian banks do donate a large amount to charities, are stable and provide excellent service. However, bank profits have a heavy portion from government debts. Government debts would be greatly reduced with the IMF-supported taxes on banks and banking transactions, such as the Tobin tax or the Robin Hood tax (.05%).
Article number 1 I find humorous. It is conflating the deferred tax account that accounts for the difference between taxes due today according to the income tax act and taxes as calculated on an accounting basis. That is often simply the difference between ITA mandated CCA and accounting amortization. It is always possible to play these games because few people understand or frankly care to understand accounting and annual statements. That leaves lots of room for 'academics' to misconstrue whichever way they like, whichever way their ideology leans. I also like how they left out the provincial portion of corporate tax rates, ignore the taxes paid by dividend recipients and don't even mention that the lowest tax rates are paid by small business not large corporations such as banks. Yes a certain number of Canadians are engaged in tax evasion. Be it the contractor working under the table or the cash based business understating their receipts.
However, let's not forget that as Canadians we have the right to avoid taxes. To do tax planning and arrange our affairs in such a way as to legitimately minimize our tax bill. There is no legal requirement for me or you or the business down the street (no matter how big or small) to arrange our affairs to maximize how much we pay in taxes.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Wednesday, 2nd May, 2012, 03:07 PM.
Yes I understand that, but you virtually never even hear about a chequing account paying interest anymore much less being free at the same time.
It's more the principle of the thing. Banks in general already make a ton of money using what is deposited into them, now they have to turn around and milk you again.
Looking forward to the day when I don't have to use a big bank anymore. Right now I'm stuck dealing with 3 of them on various items!
I am with TD (for a long time - since Canada Trust days...) and now I am fee-free! (over 60)
I realize you youngsters may not be there yet, but I can tell you it is nice to NOT pay $19.95/month anymore!
Yes I understand that, but you virtually never even hear about a chequing account paying interest anymore much less being free at the same time.
It's more the principle of the thing. Banks in general already make a ton of money using what is deposited into them, now they have to turn around and milk you again.
Looking forward to the day when I don't have to use a big bank anymore. Right now I'm stuck dealing with 3 of them on various items!
Given internet banking it's pretty easy to flip money over to an interest paying savings account and then flip it into chequing when you want to spend it. When I was a treasurer of a union local I found the treasurer before me out of sheer incompotence failed to do this over a 2 year period and kept close to a million in chequing getting no interest at all. Total loss to the union was about $100 000. Was this at a big greedy bank? No it was at the local municipal employees credit union.
... It's more the principle of the thing. Banks in general already make a ton of money using what is deposited into them, now they have to turn around and milk you again. ...
That's why the banks love Toronto Maple Leafs fans: they're already bent over with their pants down around their ankles. :)
Seriously, I think Zeljko has already pointed out that the banks, in Canada at least, have a 'user pay' philosophy. What you're suggesting, Chris, is that a bank's loan customers should, in effect, pay for your chequing account fees - not a popular proposition with the loan customers.
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
That's why the banks love Toronto Maple Leafs fans: they're already bent over with their pants down around their ankles. :)
Seriously, I think Zeljko has already pointed out that the banks, in Canada at least, have a 'user pay' philosophy. What you're suggesting, Chris, is that a bank's loan customers should, in effect, pay for your chequing account fees - not a popular proposition with the loan customers.
In the long run it'll cost them. Places like Ally and PC and ING are slowly taking business away, not to mention credit unions.
Not getting any interest 1n your bank account? Put the money into shares of Canadian banks and get 3-4% on the common shares (with growth potential) or 4-5% on the preferred shares.
Not getting any interest 1n your bank account? Put the money into shares of Canadian banks and get 3-4% on the common shares (with growth potential) or 4-5% on the preferred shares.
It's more the principle of the thing. Banks in general already make a ton of money using what is deposited into them, now they have to turn around and milk you again.
It's not particularly relevant what the banks do with the money or how much they make with their loans - only what service you get for your charges and what alternatives you have.
Personally, I think the banks provide extraordinary value for the service they provide me. They keep accurate track of my multiple accounts, provide remote internet access so I don't ever have to actually spend my time going to a bank, provide easy ways to pay my bills by cheque or electronically, they provide ATMs for easy access, allow access to other bank ATMs should I not be able to conveniently access theirs, access to funds when I'm travelling in a foreign country, take care of providing appropriate tax documentation, assume the risk of fraudulent access to my account, electronic deposit, and so on.
All of that saves me many hours of time and actual cash outlays. The alternative of keeping cash on hand, being paid in cash, going to each business I owe money to to pay them, worrying about being robbed, trying to find someone to lend money to so I can get interest..... Really, it's not an option.
YMMV of course but those people who complain don't have my sympathy.
As I write this, the yield on BMO, as an example, is a little over 5%. But, the stock price has gone down by about $1 since I wrote the above. Higher yield usually means higher risk, of course.
Because dividends are effectively taxed at a lower rate than interest, one needs an interest income of approximately 6.5% to keep the same amount in your pocket after taxes, all else being equal! I don't know if this calculation is the same for all tax brackets.
One of the things regarding dividends is how they can affect other calculations. The tax calculation on dividend income is done by "grossing up" the actual income to show more income and then, at the end, when doing the actual tax owing calculation, there is a tax credit given. This tax credit is not going to give you a refund if you owe no tax, as far as I know.
One effect of all this could be to make one subject to an Alternative Minimum Tax if too much of your income is dividend income.
Another result of the dividend income being "grossed up" to show a higher income is that there are many cases where your Net Income is used in situations where there is a means test such as the OHIP Health Tax in Ontario. There are many other areas where this comes into play.
Always being happy to learn, if anyone can correct anything here or add anything, I would like to read it.
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