CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

[Ken Craft]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

Does anybody know if the proposed agreement has been reviewed by legal counsel?

[Gary Ruben]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

Does anybody know if the proposed agreement has been reviewed by legal counsel?

The in house chess lawyers :) have been actively discussing this both here and on the French language side of the board.

Probably that's a question you should ask the executive before you cast your governors vote on the agreement. I'd hope there is a lot of good will on both sides.

[Ken Craft]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

I have asked the question on the Governors' Baord and have yet to receive an answer.

[Jean Hébert]

Re : Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

I have asked the question on the Governors' Baord and have yet to receive an answer.

This is in itself an answer. And an embarrassing one. The people involved would be so happy to be able to announce that the thing has been validated and checked by someone competent to do so. But a simple informed glance at it tells otherwise. Now we are apparently stuck with a "beast" that cannot be corrected or improved, unless negociations are resumed. The dangers of the situation become quite evident : there is a temptation in order not to lose face (this is how some people see the act of admitting that they might not be perfect) to go ahead with it as is no matter what, hoping that "good faith" will fix the loveless marriage along the way.
On the FQE side this is already the way that has been chosen. FQE out-going president Poulin, who knew next to nothing about chess and the FQE-CFC problem just four years ago, believes that he has found the solution to a 40 year old problem that he has never fully understood. He won't be around to deal with the consequences as he has announced that he was leaving his position in a few weeks at the FQE AGM.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Re : Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

FQE out-going president Poulin, who knew next to nothing about chess and the FQE-CFC problem just four years ago, believes that he has found the solution to a 40 year old problem that he has never fully understood. He won't be around to deal with the consequences as he has announced that he was leaving his position in a few weeks at the FQE AGM.

Awesome, now is your golden chance. Run Jean run. See Jean run for FQE president and win. :D:D

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Re : Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

Awesome, now is your golden chance. Run Jean run. See Jean run for FQE president and win. :D:D

Hmm...That makes me wonder.

Who are the governors of the FQE? How many are there?
How does the FQE governance structure work? Similar to CFC?

Were any of the current FQE governors around when Quebec split from the CFC, oh so many years ago?

[Gary Ruben]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

I have asked the question on the Governors' Baord and have yet to receive an answer.

Strange it wouldn't have been considered. That point jumped off the screen when I read the document.

I'm assuming this is coming about because of the low CFC membership and possibly the same trend for the FQE. Something to keep chess relevant in Canada.

I view the amount of money involved as token and doubt many see 9 dollars per adult as a large amount of money. I can recall at one time we paid 50 cents per member to the CFC for those who were not members of the CFC as well as the CCCA. Sorry but I can't recall what we got in return, if anything. It was in the '70's as I recall. There may have been some advertising involved.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Re : Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

Quebec players participated in the CCCA during the 1970's and 1980's. As the CCCA membership grew the percentage of Quebec players remained constant which meant we gained members in that province as well. The percentage of Quebec members was around 30% or more.

I view problems between the CFC and FQE to be unique to the two organizations as it didn't carry over to correspondence chess. Hopefully they will work it out.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

There may have been some advertising involved.

I think though too. The magazines had advertizements of correspondence chess quite often, and their Presidents were featured on covers :D

It is quite funny to read old magazines, especially the Letter section - an analog of the chesstalk and even same persons :D

[Gary Ruben]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

I think though too. The magazines had advertizements of correspondence chess quite often, and their Presidents were featured on covers :D

We paid for some of the advertising as I recall. I don't remember which part. :)

Yes. Many players from 40 years ago write on Chesstalk. I've noticed that many who played correspondence chess have maintained an interest in the game over the decades.

[Jean Hébert]

Re : Re: Re : Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

Hmm...That makes me wonder.

Who are the governors of the FQE? How many are there?
How does the FQE governance structure work? Similar to CFC?

The FQE has no governor or anything similar allowing in-depth discussions. Decisions are taken during board meetings by a board made of the executive (five people including the president) and some (7-8?) regional delegates. Since that the executive has already approved the deal, it would take an almost unanimous stand against it from the regional delegates to overturn it. That is very unlikely to happen even though this "support" would only indicate a lack of proper consideration for this rushed and superficial deal.

Were any of the current FQE governors around when Quebec split from the CFC, oh so many years ago?

I was not directly involved, but I was there at a crucial meeting of what was then the FJEQ (fédération des joueurs d'échecs du Québec) in Quebec city in 1974 or 75, I believe. No split as such ever was decided by what was to become the FQE. What was decided then was to provide Quebec chess players with the services in french that the CFC was unwilling or incapable of providing them, among other things a publication, a rating system and people capable of answering its clientele in their language. Thus, the FQE started selling its own membership to accomplish what the "national" federation of Canada could not or would not do. Quebec organizers remained free to rate their events and sell whatever membership they liked. But with the capacity of the CFC to provide services only in one of the two official languages in Canada, the choice (if there was one) was easy to make.
About 4-5 years later in 1979 the FQE was disaffiliated by the CFC, leading to the situation that we are now in. If that 30+ year conflict could not be solved before, it is mainly because on the english side, the need to provide services in french to Quebec players has always been misunderstood or downplayed. But this is just as much a part of the picture than the CFC international expenses. It is the FQE french services vs the CFC international expenses. Which one is worth more ? I will keep my opinion to me for now... ;)

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

The FQE has no governor or anything similar allowing in-depth discussions. Decisions are taken during board meetings by a board made of the executive (five people including the president) and some (7-8?) regional delegates. Since that the executive has already approved the deal, it would take an almost unanimous stand against it from the regional delegates to overturn it.

I was under the impression the FQE executive was now seeking the approval of the "FQE governors". So I guess that would be the regional delegates!

The CFC website lists all of their executives and governors. Does the FQE do the same on their website? Just asking......:)

[Jean Hébert]

Re : CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

I was under the impression the FQE executive was now seeking the approval of the "FQE governors". So I guess that would be the regional delegates!

The CFC website lists all of their executives and governors. Does the FQE do the same on their website? Just asking......:)

How about some Googling on your part ? I heard that you are pretty good at that... ;)

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

The in house chess lawyers :) have been actively discussing this both here and on the French language side of the board.

Probably that's a question you should ask the executive before you cast your governors vote on the agreement. I'd hope there is a lot of good will on both sides.

I doubt that the CFC spent $2000 to have the agreement reviewed by a lawyer. You usually get lawyers involved in this kind of arrangement if you want to kill it, delay it (because it is inevitable but it is profitable to you to delay it), or pay more in lawyer fees than the sums which will be paid in FIDE expenses (perhaps I exaggerate but only a little).

The real question here is whether we (the CFC and FQE) are ready to work together for the good of chess in all of Canada? Is chess in Canada better off with the deal on the table or better off without the deal? I'd say we are better off with the deal.

Is it a perfect deal? No, but it is a pretty good deal for both sides and certainly better than the status quo. Things can go wrong if one or the other side proceeds in bad faith but why would you enter into such a deal just to mess it up? Worst case from my point of view is that the deal does not work out and we are back to where we started. Best case is that the deal does work out and more CFC members play in FQE tournaments and more FQE members play in CFC tournaments. More chess gets organized and played. Win-win.

Critics who say we are giving the FQE a better deal than that offered to other provinces are ignoring the fact that we cannot in our present form offer services in French. If we can start down this path of cooperation, with the help of the FQE and its members then perhaps we will be able to offer services in French in the future. There are many things on everyone's wish list but in its present form very little can be accomplished because our numbers are so few. Our fixed costs are relatively high. We can grow by 50% by one very significant vote. We can approach potential sponsors with the fact that we represent 3000 tournament players across Canada rather than 1900 mostly in Ontario.

In evaluating the deal we should not compare it with some pie in the sky deal which we could have accomplished if we (the CFC) were holding all the cards. This is a deal between relative equals and reflects that reality. Piling on conditions like the FQE has to swear eternal fealty to the vision of the CFC ruling chess in Canada and Quebec forever with an iron fist is just being ridiculous. Over the years things happened which perhaps annoyed certain people. Get over it. We have only the present. We can't change the past though people often try to, with spin. The future will be determined by what we do now. Lets take a step down the path of cooperation and see where it leads us. If we find we don't like it then we can always go back to the current reality of two solitudes and say that we tried but it didn't work out.

[Jean Hébert]

Re : Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

First of all Vladimir, let me point out that I value your contribution to this thread. You have the courage of your convictions and to express them. This is the only way to build a positive dialogue.

Is it a perfect deal? No, but it is a pretty good deal for both sides and certainly better than the status quo.

From the CFCs point of view, what is so wrong with the current situation, besides not getting "enough" money from Quebec players ? Too many Quebec players on the national teams getting a "free ride" ? Hardly. 1/9 two years ago and the same this time around (11%). Not enough cooperation ? In the last decade the FQE has come to the CFCs rescue quite a few times (Canadian Open in 2002, CYCC once, etc.). It even made a 2000$ donation to the olympic fund two years ago. If one think that this status quo is so bad for the CFC, wait until this agreement gets in the way of that good will.

Worst case from my point of view is that the deal does not work out and we are back to where we started. Best case is that the deal does work out and more CFC members play in FQE tournaments and more FQE members play in CFC tournaments. More chess gets organized and played. Win-win.

I am anxiously waiting to see you playing in Quebec tournaments Mr Drkulec. The fact is it is not the dual membership fees that is the most significant obstacle for players to play more tournaments further from home. It is time, general expenses (travel, lodging, food, etc), and distances. And it is true even for someone like me. Last year I played the Canadian Open in Toronto. I had not played chess in Toronto for more than 20 years! Despite the fact that I dont have to pay for either membership! But other expenses are simply too much for me to attend weekenders in Ontario. This deal is not going to change the fundamentals.
People have limited time and funds to play chess. Waiving membership fees will help, but only a little if any. People will probably play the same amount of chess, and spent the same kind of money, but spreaded over different locations. They might play fewer local events in favor of going out more often. Is it what we are after ? I doubt it.

Critics who say we are giving the FQE a better deal than that offered to other provinces are ignoring the fact that we cannot in our present form offer services in French. If we can start down this path of cooperation, with the help of the FQE and its members then perhaps we will be able to offer services in French in the future.

It is never going to happen but if it happens, it would not be "cooperation". It would be competing with the FQE to put it out of business. What would you say if the FQE started to offer its services in english for the rest of Canada ? Would you call it "cooperation" ?

There are many things on everyone's wish list but in its present form very little can be accomplished because our numbers are so few. Our fixed costs are relatively high. We can grow by 50% by one very significant vote.

This would obviously be artificial growth. Real growth is something else.

We can approach potential sponsors with the fact that we represent 3000 tournament players across Canada rather than 1900 mostly in Ontario.

Not so long ago the CFC's membership was around 4,000 members, without the FQE. What did the CFC do then about approaching potential sponsors ? And now 3 000 would make a difference in that regard ? I am all for "good will" and "good faith" but it should not be confused with "wishful thinking" and illusions.

The future will be determined by what we do now. Lets take a step down the path of cooperation and see where it leads us. If we find we don't like it then we can always go back to the current reality of two solitudes and say that we tried but it didn't work out.

There is absolutely no garantee that going back to the current situation (which I call a "live and let live" situation) will be possible if that deal leads to major misunderstandings and disagreements as I suspect it will. The status quo as you call it has allowed some timely cooperation when both sides saw it as mutually profitable, which is the only way to cooperate. Can the current situation be improved ? Absolutely. But this agreement is not going down this path. It is incomplete, ill-founded and dangerous. Such an agreement with a double veto cannot work very long. It carelessly opens a pandora box. More care and considerations are needed to solve a 40 year old problem without making it worse.