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Yes, no need to educate me - I keep doing that for some time already, still have ways to go. It would be wonderful to know the details of history of every country on earth, wouldn't be? When I do not know, I ask. And life gave me the opportunities to see a lot, and to talk to a large diversity of people, on many subjects, including history.
You did not provide any details, except you presented your way of thinking. Good enough. You are out of place (a chess forum), and out of time (the passing of a great player, with friends all over the world) with your posting.
As already noted, this thread went sideways. I concluded here "the history lesson".
Originally posted by Laurentiu GrigorescuView Post
Yes, no need to educate me - I keep doing that for some time already, still have ways to go. It would be wonderful to know the details of history of every country on earth, wouldn't be? When I do not know, I ask. And life gave me the opportunities to see a lot, and to talk to a large diversity of people, on many subjects, including history.
You did not provide any details, except you presented your way of thinking. Good enough. You are out of place (a chess forum), and out of time (the passing of a great player, with friends all over the world) with your posting.
As already noted, this thread went sideways. I concluded here "the history lesson".
What you don't know you should consider finding a good library to fill in the gaps. Otherwise personally I wouldn't be parading my ignorance around. What I do not know I find out for myself. If I don't know the history of a country, of which many I don't, I don't try to prove those that do wrong. If someone from some other place in the world tried to set you straight on Canadian history how happy would you be with them?
Details: again if I told you someone was a Nazi party member and combatant under Hitler woiuld you expect me to provide details or would you understand what that meant? Would you expect me to explain the entire history of the Nazi era to you? Would you say hey he was only a Nazi party member and combatant, nothing wrong with that? Do you expect me to explain to you the entire Tito era?
Detail #1: (Which I will repeat again) Tito had a vote of the Yugoslavian communist party as to whether they should remain allied with the Soviet Union. Everyone who voted for the Soviet Union was either killed that night or sent to a prison on an island in the Adriatic. The communist party was complicit in this. As I said people don't just disappear overnight without someone noticing. Gligoric was part of that system. If you had even a passing knowledge of Yugoslavia you would already know that. I don't know what history lesson you are ending. I have learned nothing from you except that you don't know anything about Yugoslavia and will gladly try to rehabilitate a murderous dictator like Tito because you admire Gligoric as a chess player.
Detail #2, #3 etc. sorry way too much suffering of the Yugoslav people under Tito's communists to detail everything here. I woiuld have to write a book to do the amount of suffering that went on any justice at all. Suffice it to say that Tito and his regime followed along the lines of other regimes in their crimes and corruption like Mao, Stalin, and in other communist countries like Romania, North Korea. Really do you mean to say you know nothing of the suffering of eastern Europe under communism?
As for being out of line, #1 Gligoric is a Serb and I will say whatever I like about a fellow Serb. That is part of Serbian culture unless you want to lecture me on how to be a Serb too. #2 I am reacting to Frank's lauding of Gligoric's non-chess wartime record. #3 This is a chess site and in chess and on this board we have a tradition of disucssing everything under the sun including climate change. Deal with it.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Saturday, 18th August, 2012, 02:58 AM.
Allow me to be the first one to pat you on the back and empathise with you. I went through a similar discussion back about 15 years ago when Miguel Najdorf passed away.
Some people just wanted to throw dirt around, so the discussion came up of Najdorf refusing to stand for a moment of silence after Alexander Alekhine died. Plain and simple, Najdorf was a Polish Jew who was forced to flee Poland during WWII, and Alekhine was a known Nazi supporter. I doubt any further explanation is necessary as to why Najdorf was not willing to participate in any Alekhine memorials.
Zeljko, I could not believe that there were people who still deny that Nazi Germany under Hitler was responsible for millions of murders during WWII!
Well, all that evil had a lot more exposure than the Tito regime, so sadly I'm not surprised by how much ignorance there is about Serbian history.
Keep fighting the good fight against ignorance.
Jordan
No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it.
Najdorf was a Polish Jew who was forced to flee Poland during WWII
Just to nitpick (and staying off-topic) - Najdorf was at the Olympiad in Buenos Aires in 1939 when WW2 broke out. He didn't flee Poland - he simply stayed on in Argentina (maybe "defected" would be the correct term).
Thanks Jordan. I don't mind when people don't know the history. I only mind when they try to argue from the point of view of that lack of knowledge. I also think any kind of student of WW2 or the Cold War probably should have some general idea of what went on in Yugoslavia.
How many choices had people during the war? I don't think that to be neutral was an option for young men.
if by young men you mean to imply that only young men of military age fought in Yugoslavia during WW2 you might like to know that women and those in some cases well under 18 also routinely fought
and no, no one had to join the communists, this was not the Soviet Union where the communists were in power well before WW2
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Saturday, 18th August, 2012, 12:54 PM.
How many choices had people during the war? I don't think that to be neutral was an option for young men.
Neutral was an option. Some choose it and survived the war. The government had fled into exile to England and there was no conscription of anyone. To actually join the partisans you had to find them and volunteer to join them. You also had to convince them that you were a communist and that was often helped along if you were part of the pre-WW2 communist underground. You obviouisly had to convince them you were not a Nazi double agent or monarchist. The communist forces were too busy running from the Nazis and trying to find weapons to conscript anyone either. At one point they only had 5 bullets each - hardly an effective guirillea movement. Which made it harder to find them - you didn't just walk into your nearest communist partisan recruitment hall.
The other option which many Serbs choose was to continue to fight as part of the Royal Yugoslav Army under the leadership of Draza Mihailovic. The standng army that choose not to surrender and continue to fight the Nazis. The ones who already had arms and ammunition and a leadership command structure. Had Churchill not been duped by his own agents and withdrawn support from Mihailovic this would have been the more effective counter to the Nazis.
The communists were a totally disorganized, untested option to fight the Nazis. Only those ideologically driven joined them especially at the beginning of the war. Implying as you seem to that they were the only game in town for those who wanted to resist the Nazis shows a lack of background concerning the scope of the armed forces in action. The RJA or Chetniks were significant enough to return more downed allied fighters to their own lines than anyone else. How many did Tito's forces assist? Close to none. Returning those air crews to their own lines so they could fly again was a key way to fight the Nazis. However that was not Tito's priority. Tito's priority was seizing power for himself.
It is a similar situation to the foreign volunteers during the Spanish civil war. If you wanted to fight in that war you first had to make your way to Spain and then find way to make contact with the forces you wanted to join. Tito would know all about this as his job was to vet and smuggle recruits into Spain. He was based in Paris as a communist operative.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Saturday, 18th August, 2012, 01:05 PM.
Thanks to Gary for the note on Ronald Reagan's term as President of SAG during the period in question. This was while Reagan was a supporter of the Democratic Party; he was well-regarded by his peers.
Thanks to Mr. Zeromskis for pointing out my error; he is right that the 'Governator' had finished his time as California Governor when the 'love-child' scandal broke out.
Just to nitpick (and staying off-topic) - Najdorf was at the Olympiad in Buenos Aires in 1939 when WW2 broke out. He didn't flee Poland - he simply stayed on in Argentina (maybe "defected" would be the correct term).
Hugh,
Thanks for the history lesson... I didn't realize that's what happened!
Cheers! Jordan
No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it.
And Najdorf wasn't the only European who stayed behind after the Olympiad. Here is a list of all players who "defected" in 1939 (thanks to Wikipedia and Olimpbase):
Miguel Najdorf (POL), Paulino Frydman (POL), Gideon Stahlberg (SWE), Erich Eliskases (GER), Paul Michel (GER), Ludwig Engels (GER), Albert Becker (GER), Heinrich Reinhardt (GER), Jiří Pelikán (CZE*), Karel Skalička (CZE*), Markas Luckis (LIT), Movsas Feigins (LAT), Ilmar Raud (EST), Moshe Czerniak (Palestine), Meir Rauch (Palestine), Victor Winz (Palestine), Aristide Gromer (FRA), Franciszek Sulik (POL), Adolf Seitz (GER), Chris De Ronde (NED), Zelman Kleinstein (Palestine), Sonja Graf (GER) and Paulette Schwartzmann (FRA).
*: the "Czechoslovak" players actually represented the "Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia" - the name Germany gave to the occupied territory.
Most of them were Jewish and had come to Buenos Aires in August 1939 on the Belgian steamer "Piriapolis". The ship has therefore come to be regarded as the epitome of Noah's Ark for a generation of chess players.
Significantly, all five members of the German team (Eliskases, Michel, Engels, Becker, Reinhardt) also chose not to return to Nazi Germany. Note that some of those who played for "Germany" lived in occupied Austria.
Most of the listed players returned to Europe after the war - but others settled in Argentina.
It's a shame when a great chess player and personality such as Svetozar Gligoric is being painted with all kinds of colours here. He was the best Serbian and Yugoslav chess player of all times, journalist, chess tournaments organizer, was fluent in several languages, soft-spoken, true legend. In his late years he even composed music and released CDs. That's the man we are talking about here. After reading some of the comments here, I'm under the impression that he is being compared with Nazi soldiers?! For the record, he joined Tito's partisans as a very young man and fought Nazis. Partisans were the best organized anti-nazi force in the region at the time, if they weren't they wouldn't win the war and they wouldn't get much support from the West. After the war, almost every known personality living in Yugoslavia at the time was genuinely supportive of Tito and the system. If they disagreed, they kept their mouth shut, or they moved out of the country. It's that simple. Different times, different era. How about Cuban players playing under the Cuban flag now? Are they all communists and pro-Castro?
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