Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize events?

[Garvin Nunes]

Re: Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize events?

...

Just to name a few incidents from these Circus Performers.

Pen or pencil twirling and dropping same while it is both their move and their opponent's.
Stacking pieces at the board and having them drop.
Constantly adjusting and touching their pieces on the board during their opponent's move.
Offering draws after every move.
Blitzing a player in time trouble and then asking the opponent for his score sheet to catch up the missing moves on his opponent's time.
Waving their hand in front of the opponent's face offering a draw.
Lifting the clock up during play. Slamming the clocks and disturbing every one.
Walking around behind their opponent and almost putting their head on the opponent's shoulder.
Leaning over to the board beside them to see the position.
Tapping pieces, clicking pens.
Lifting pieces off the board, waving them around, then putting them back down and then move the piece.

...

I agree these are bad things but for me to take these accusations seriously I think you need to name names of the kids you saw engaged in these "crimes". (Preferably at the event immediately after you witness the bad behaviour).

I also hope that this argument doesn't become a generalization against "kids" because in that case it would not be cogent. (I just need to name a few counter examples of "kids" who don't misbehave.. the vast majority in my experience.. and the generalization is false).

Once you tell me specifically who you saw blitzing or smashing clocks or disrupting the event in some other way then we can say yes or no on whether that individual disrupted the tournament and whether or not they should "be allowed to play in cash tournaments" or not.

In other words, I'd just prefer this be about individuals and not groups...but of course if you just make a list of crimes "the bad kids do", its about groups not individuals. (The crimes aren't associated to any individuals...its just a big list of bad things.)

Chances are with a few warnings the small number of kids who misbehave will correct their behaviour anyways. Players should go to the organizer or TD *immediately* after they witness these things. Don't let the anger grow and fester until we see it explode onto Chess Talk 5 months after the fact...

[Duncan Smith]

Re: Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize events?

This thread is a good example of how Canadian chess continually shoots itself in the foot. Events need the entries from minors for both revenue and skills ( some of the best competitors are minors ). Disruptions at chess events occur for all ages, in most cases it's easier to deal with kids if you address it properly.

A much more important issue is ensuring these events are suitable and pleasant for minors who enjoy chess. Juniors tend to be ignored and taken for granted. Once a junior gets to a certain skill point, almost none of the events are really designed for them ( CYCC is an exception but its a very expensive option ). It could be that yes, more junior only events is part of the solution. I'm afraid though that current organizers and players aren't really prepared for what that would mean. If the open age concept is to be maintained, more effort needs to be spent on how to positively encourage juniors in that environment, rather then complain about why 10-14 year olds don't always act like their 30 years old.

[Garvin Nunes]

Re: Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize events?

I would also add having organized both adult and childrens events that by far incidents of bad behavior came from the adults. (Well maybe except for the pencil tapping and fidgiting thing.) When I tell a child to stop doing something they just stop. Say the same thing to an adult they are defensive, threatening etc. Plus you will also get some kind of passive agressive attack on chess talk.

I wonder if Hal Bond has ever been publically attacked by a child for "not putting up enough signs" at a tounament.

But again most adults are good and there isnt an "adult" problem. There are occassional individuals who cause problems.

[John Brown]

Re: Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize events?

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[John Brown]

Re: Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize events?

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[Jack Maguire]

Re : Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize events?

I'm squarely in Garvin's camp in that my own empirical tournament evidence concurs that adults are the preponderant so-called 'problem'. I've only experienced firsthand two isolated cases of inappropriate junior chess etiquette. Both of these were inflicted by juniors playing their inaugural chess tournament and in each case the junior subsequently apologized to me many months later when they had become more tournament savvy.
In retrospect, both of these experiences, while unwelcome at the time, are now rather cherished for their comical overtones. They perhaps meet the former standup comedian and current mayor of Reykjavik, Jon Gnarr's definition of tragedy plus time equals comedy.
I'm of the opinion that is very much 'Much Ado About Nothing' but I do have a possible solution for John. John should be granted a special CFC dispensation to henceforth be able to play, without the wont extra charge, in the > 1600 section in lieu of the < 1600 section. I can almost guarantee John that his perceived problems with juniors will immediately cease and desist at even this modest ratings level.

[John Brown]

Re: Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize events?

wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[Jack Maguire]

Re : Re: Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize events?

That would be going against the rules Jack. We are trying to revise rules not break them.

No, John, said special dispensation would then become a rule (the John Brown rule) and we'd be perfectly abiding by the rules (:

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Re : Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize events?

I'm squarely in Garvin's camp in that my own empirical tournament evidence concurs that adults are the preponderant so-called 'problem'.

Why don't you folks organize events which exclude adults?

Tournament organizers and directors get the kind of tournaments they deserve.

[Jack Maguire]

Re : Re: Re : Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize even

Why don't you folks organize events which exclude adults?

Tournament organizers and directors get the kind of tournaments they deserve.

I'm on the record that this is very much 'Much Ado About Nothing' and don't wish to exclude anyone, Gary. You might also want to consider my Jon Gnarr reference for further disabuse.

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Re : Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize events?

I'm squarely in Garvin's camp in that my own empirical tournament evidence concurs that adults are the preponderant so-called 'problem'. I've only experienced firsthand two isolated cases of inappropriate junior chess etiquette. ...

I agree. In some 45 years of tournament chess, I've never experienced a serious problem with a junior but have experienced a number of problems with adult chess players.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Re : Re: Re : Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize

I'm on the record that this is very much 'Much Ado About Nothing' and don't wish to exclude anyone, Gary.

Over the years I directed hundreds of tournaments and thousands of players. Both for the Canadian correspondence organization and the ICCF tournament office.) Mostly correspondence where players had to get along with each other over the years a game could last. The largest single event with over 400 entrants. I got rid of problem players who didn't follow the rules.

I've played in events which had tournament directors who were "homers" (favoured their countrymen), didn't apply the rules equally to all the participants and neglected to respond to problems. Often they lost control of the event and it deteriorated. That's why I say a tournament director gets the kind of tournament he deserves.

Players will test a TD to see how far they can go. That's not restricted to age.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize events?

I only recall one game where I had a problem with a junior in an off and on chess career which spans about forty years. I have seen bad habits creeping into the behaviour of some of our Windsor kids and quickly told them to stop doing whatever it was that seemed objectionable. They always stop, though they might have to be reminded of it if the behaviour isn't conscious. I have made a point to tell them not to do anything which hints at poor sportsmanship. There are lines which we should not cross.

I give kids the example of Topolov and his match with Anand where Topolov and his handlers had offended so many people that you had many of Anand's rivals cooperating together with Anand to help him beat Topolov.

[Lucas Davies]

Re: Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize events?

I was in the shower, and it struck me. Does anyone else see the irony of discussing rude behaviour at the board on chesstalk? Chesstalk, where rudeness and insults are not just tolerated, but encouraged. Maybe the arbiters of chesstalk should............

With respect to draw offers, I find it rude when the opponent does not acknowledge a draw offer. A simple, "no thank you" or "let me think about it", IMHO should be the proper response. I realize that saying nothing and just making a move is considered an acceptable response by many, but I find it rude. I consider a non response tantamount to saying "your draw offer is not worthy of consideration, I will now crush you".?

Anybody with me?

It's not rude at all. They're declining it by moving. If anything, verbally responding could just distract those around you.

[Roger Patterson]

Re: Should unruly and disruptive juniors play in CFC Rated, Cash Prize events?

It's not rude at all. They're declining it by moving. If anything, verbally responding could just distract those around you.

Not to mention, being misheard or misunderstood as acceptance.

I recently offered a draw and and my opponent said "sure" meaning he heard my draw offer and would think about it (eventually declining). It's pretty obvious how that could be misconstrued as acceptance. Silence would have been better.