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USCF three fold repetition rule different than CFC, FIDE
Unless Player A's move has just caused 3-time repetition to occur, then and only then can Player A do something besides hit the clock: s/he may STOP THE CLOCK, claim a draw and seek out the TD.
I'm trying to think of this from a lawyer's point of view, to prevent all possible scams, but if I'm missing something, maybe you can point it out.
It seems to me, following this thread, that the ideal technical rule is the one in FIDE's book: write the move, stop the clock, seek the TD.
As for scams, anyone who tried to frame his opponent in such a rule violation clearly would be a scammer and would become known. He would also risk being witnessed. I wouldn't worry about this.
It reminded me Kasparov vs some US junior in a simul play. (I think it was on the youtube video). The junior chose a drawish variation with a 3-time repetition. Kasparov just got mad...
I told a simplified version of the story. Actually in that variation if black wants to avoid the draw he has to play the h6 system or something, wich is slightly worse. I knew my oponent played the Zaitsev system very well so it was a way of avoiding it. He did'nt look too sure himself if he wanted the draw or not, he was'nt mad, but it would have upset me if the arbiter would have said to continue the game. I had in mind that no matter at what move in the game, if there has ever been a 3-fold repetition, the draw can be claimed, reconstructed if one of the players disagrees. Maybe it was an old rule or something...
I had in mind that no matter at what move in the game, if there has ever been a 3-fold repetition, the draw can be claimed, reconstructed if one of the players disagrees.
That's possible, but it would be similar to having video judges in a hockey game dismiss a goal after play has already continued. I mean: the decision to draw or not draw should be made while the draw is on the board, not later.
Three fold repetition is not a technicality. It's an actual game play rule. The construct of how you declare such a rule is a technicality.
How you claim the draw is also part of the relevant rule contained in the FIDE Laws of Chess. It is silly to put one part of that rule up on a pedestal and then to denigrate another part of it as a "mere technicality".
If NM Drkulec's opponent wished to claim a draw, then according to the FIDE Laws of Chess he must first write down his intended move, stop the clocks and summon the arbiter to make his claim.
If that happens, the draw claim is upheld. If the opponent does not follow the outlined process correctly, then the correct ruling is to deny any such draw claim.
How you claim the draw is also part of the relevant rule contained in the FIDE Laws of Chess. It is silly to put one part of that rule up on a pedestal and then to denigrate another part of it as a "mere technicality".
If NM Drkulec's opponent wished to claim a draw, then according to the FIDE Laws of Chess he must first write down his intended move, stop the clocks and summon the arbiter to make his claim.
If that happens, the draw claim is upheld. If the opponent does not follow the outlined process correctly, then the correct ruling is to deny any such draw claim.
"9.4 If the player touches a piece as in Article 4.3 without having claimed the draw he loses the right to claim, as in Article 9.2 or 9.3, on that move."
In Québec city I had a situation where I faced a much higher rated master and I played Ng5-f3-g5-f3 on Re8-f8-e8 in the Zaitsev Spanish and claimed the draw incorectly, the arbiter, being a sensible man, closed the conversation and declared the game a draw. After that he said he made a mistake. Someone asked my oponent: why did you repeat moves if you did'nt want the draw?? He said: "well I did'nt think he was gonna do it! I don't know what else to play." But my argument is:"well too bad for you, you fell into a 3-fold repetition, that is the way we play the game." So he tried to get an unfair advantage by knowing a technical phrase in some ambiguously writen 400 pages rulebook, that's poor sportsmanship alright.
It is not "extreme poor sportsmanship" to abide by the Laws of Chess. It is also not, in my opinion, the mark of a "sensible man" to make an incorrect ruling on such a basic point as a draw claim.
I think it is in the interest of every tournament chess player to know the Laws of Chess.
Re: USCF three fold repetition rule different than CFC, FIDE
Claude, I think the rulebook already has been written for the whole of the players. It is the product of over a century of chess praxis, precedents and input from tournament players and arbiters.
The rules regarding threefold draw claims have remained constant for at least the past few decades which to my mind means they reflect the will of the players. They make perfect sense to me and if they did not make sense to the vast majority of players, in my opinion they would have been changed.
If the position IS in fact repeated three (or more) times then the rules already allow for a draw result. Simply stop the clock, summon the arbiter and claim the draw. If both players in fact want the draw, the opponent will simply shake your hand and agree to the draw before the arbiter even gets there. If you are ABOUT to repeat the position three (or more) times and want a draw, it is simple to follow the correct procedure as outlined in the Laws of Chess.
If you don't follow that required process, then I consider that as evidence that you don't want the draw.
Re: USCF three fold repetition rule different than CFC, FIDE
We might have had a misunderstanding, with all these threads I can't find where someone mentionned that the rules had been changed to accomodate sofia type rules that would contradict the way old rulebooks were writen. I vaguely remember a chessbase article about it when they started making up these no draw before move 30 things. Some people argued that the phrasing of the rulebook forbade such sofia-type rules in case of three fold repetition or something. That's what I meant by forcing players to play. I'm not an arbiter and now I know more or less how to claim a draw, just stop the clock on my move (without doing anything??), but for most people,
If the position IS in fact repeated three (or more) times then the rules already allow for a draw result. Simply stop the clock, summon the arbiter and claim the draw.
when to stop the clock?? That's the part that can be unclear.
Last edited by Claude Carrier; Sunday, 9th September, 2012, 08:23 PM.
Re: USCF three fold repetition rule different than CFC, FIDE
You can stop the clock any time you require the presence of the arbiter; that includes claiming a draw. As for when to stop the clock, let's take your Zaitsev case as an example:
The move sequence Ng5-Rf8-Nf3-Re8-Ng5-Rf8 is played.
If you are white, write Nf3 on your scoresheet, stop the clocks and summon the arbiter. If you are black and white plays Nf3 again, you stop the clocks and summon the arbiter.
There is nothing unclear about either of these two scenarios.
As for your statement about a sensible arbiter, the Laws of Chess state:
13.1 The arbiter shall see that the Laws of Chess are strictly observed.
An arbiter's "latitude/judgement" cannot be allowed to contradict the Laws of Chess. Their job is to enforce it, not to reinvent it.
Re: USCF three fold repetition rule different than CFC, FIDE
So far I've had 1 parking ticket in my driver's experience; I contested it and won. The sign was very clear and it was the law, I could'nt park there. I won because I took pictures of the cedar tree standing right in front of the sign and hiding it completly, there's no way one could have seen that sign. The judge said in that case the sign constituted a trap.
Last edited by Claude Carrier; Sunday, 9th September, 2012, 08:23 PM.
Re: USCF three fold repetition rule different than CFC, FIDE
Geez the law of chess is that if the position is repeated 3 times it's a draw. If the player stoped the clock after pressing on it or before or before his move or after is not reinventing the rules.
edit: you might be right: "An arbiter's "latitude/judgement" cannot be allowed to contradict the Laws of Chess. Their job is to enforce it,..." but in that case the appeals comitee would be swamped with always the same argument. In practice I don't get a ticket even when I cross the street on a red liight as a pedestrian unless there's a major issue, that's just common sense.
Last edited by Claude Carrier; Friday, 7th September, 2012, 02:48 AM.
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