Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

[Jean Hébert]

Re : Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

I'm not sure I agree with Gordon's apparent view, given in a link in Paul's last post, that chess seems inevitably unable to present itself well enough on television.

Kevin,
You do well to have doubts about such unresearched sweeping statements. Even though the information is easily available for those who want it, people still present their prejudiced opinions as "facts". The fact is that chess has been and still is presented successfully on television in several countries. For example, it has been so for decades in the Netherlands and Germany. To say that "chess seems inevitably unable to present itself well enough on television" is not only wrong but counter productive in that it discourages people to even try.
Even here in Quebec, in the seventies well known local player Serge Lacroix had a chess program on a community channel. Even though it was actually pretty bad, it was good enough to last for a couple of years... Imagine with the moderns means how good and adequate it could be. We are not trying to compete with professional sports here. We would be trying to find a niche along hundreds of more or less obscure topics that have found theirs among the innumerable channels that we now have.

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

Leo Williams, myself, and another whose name I forget hosted a community-channel TV chess program in Montreal in 1972 (I think). About a dozen episodes were done that summer - some in English, some in French.

It was called "The Chess Fanatics" or "Les fanatiques des échecs".

[Erik Malmsten]

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Your limited experience plays tricks on you. You should pay more attention to people with more experience and knowledge just as I do. With all the books available and all the information easily found on the net, there is really no excuse... :).
Chess and the chess teacher in the regular school hours are more than welcomed by kids. Imagine, it is chess (a game!) rather than math or some other regular subject. In extracurricular time, it is not such a good trade off for the kids : it is chess instead of free time (relaxing and recreation). Not conducive to any learning at all.

Chess in the regular classtime is doing quite well in Toronto, through the CIC, who have brought on more chess teachers for this year.

[Erik Malmsten]

Re: Re : Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

Kevin,
You do well to have doubts about such unresearched sweeping statements. Even though the information is easily available for those who want it, people still present their prejudiced opinions as "facts". The fact is that chess has been and still is presented successfully on television in several countries. For example, it has been so for decades in the Netherlands and Germany. To say that "chess seems inevitably unable to present itself well enough on television" is not only wrong but counter productive in that it discourages people to even try.
Even here in Quebec, in the seventies well known local player Serge Lacroix had a chess program on a community channel. Even though it was actually pretty bad, it was good enough to last for a couple of years... Imagine with the moderns means how good and adequate it could be. We are not trying to compete with professional sports here. We would be trying to find a niche along hundreds of more or less obscure topics that have found theirs among the innumerable channels that we now have.

World Poker Tour shows, using lighting, editing, computer graphics, pretty hosts, etc. have brought poker to a wider audience, and I think a chess tournament/ chess teaching show with teenaged players would be a great international success.

Competition on reality shows is successful TV content, just need to find ways of bringing out the human element in a chess competition. Edit in pre-game interviews of players at home or with their coaches, have on-screen computer analysis, some artificial drama with editing and manufactured crisis like a touch move ruling, and warm hosts explaining everything, not talking down to the audience. Have a variety of players so that the viewers will choose a favourite, even if it's only because she/he's the cutest or their music or fashion tastes.

[Alexandru Florea]

Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

What if a position like this arises:



This should be a draw in regular chess. White would have to try really hard to lose a position like this. But under these rules, once a certain number of moves are played out, Black will get to place a queen while white would only get a rook and so White would be the player in trouble.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

Your limited experience plays tricks on you. You should pay more attention to people with more experience and knowledge just as I do. With all the books available and all the information easily found on the net, there is really no excuse... :).
Chess and the chess teacher in the regular school hours are more than welcomed by kids. Imagine, it is chess (a game!) rather than math or some other regular subject. In extracurricular time, it is not such a good trade off for the kids : it is chess instead of free time (relaxing and recreation). Not conducive to any learning at all.

I am aware of most of what is written on the subject. The latest thought as expressed by Richard James on his blog is that you are better off with kids who really want to make the effort to be there. I haven't experienced an entire chess class of kids who really didn't want to be there though I have seen instances where one kid who wasn't motivated was quite disruptive to a class. I had a friend teach a class during school hours and he found it a miserable experience. He did not have any disruptive kids, merely a bunch of unmotivated ones.

[Jean Hébert]

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I had a friend teach a class during school hours and he found it a miserable experience. He did not have any disruptive kids, merely a bunch of unmotivated ones.

If you have to mention a friend's experience does it mean that you have no first hand experience of your own ? Did the thought that your friend may not have been a very good "chess teacher" ever crossed your mind ? To succeed in teaching chess, like any other subject for that matter, you need to know your stuff, be structured and lively. If you don't, you can't expect to motivate and get the kid's attention.
When you write "I am aware of most of what is written on the subject" does it mean that you are "aware" but haven't read much of it, or that you are simply unaware of the vast amount of material on the subject that very few people on the planet can pretend to have read ?

[Zeljko Kitich]

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If you have to mention a friend's experience does it mean that you have no first hand experience of your own ? Did the thought that your friend may not have been a very good "chess teacher" ever crossed your mind ? To succeed in teaching chess, like any other subject for that matter, you need to know your stuff, be structured and lively. If you don't, you can't expect to motivate and get the kid's attention.
When you write "I am aware of most of what is written on the subject" does it mean that you are "aware" but haven't read much of it, or that you are simply unaware of the vast amount of material on the subject that very few people on the planet can pretend to have read ?

Which high school did you go to Jean? I've seen many a very good teacher get poor results from a classroom full of mostly unmotivated students. And yes that was first hand experience because I was one of the motivated students who had to put up with the rest.

I've also had the experience of being part of a YMCA chess program on Saturday mornings where one or two parents decided to use us as a free babysitting service and leave their uninterested children with us while they ran off and did whatever. Fortunately I was able to get rid of them because it turned out those parents and children were not even YMCA members. They literally thought we should be free baby sitters.

[Felix Dumont]

Re : Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

When I was in 4th grade, they tried to insert chess lessons and problems during mathematics courses. Mathematics don't have the reputation to be very popular among girls, but I most admit that they liked it far more than chess. The experience didn't give good results at all, I would say.
Although chess can definitely be a great way to develop our logical thinking, and I believe I am a good example of it, it won't work if you are forced to play. When I was in high school, I received massive support (both financial and logistical) from the school by convincing them that I would never have got good grades if I hadn't been playing chess. Every day, we had quite a big number of players for a high school (about 30-50). It gave good results this time, but they were all motivated... The only way I could really interest more students was with special events (simuls, blindfold simuls, blitz matches...), but there is no way they would have wanted to receive lessons.

[Tom O'Donnell]

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Which high school did you go to Jean? I've seen many a very good teacher get poor results from a classroom full of mostly unmotivated students. And yes that was first hand experience because I was one of the motivated students who had to put up with the rest.

I've also had the experience of being part of a YMCA chess program on Saturday mornings where one or two parents decided to use us as a free babysitting service and leave their uninterested children with us while they ran off and did whatever. Fortunately I was able to get rid of them because it turned out those parents and children were not even YMCA members. They literally thought we should be free baby sitters.

From my experience and from talking to other experienced teachers (not only chess teachers):

- Even one unmotivated student can make life miserable for a teacher. Get rid of them quickly if you can.

- Doing it as an extra-curricular activity decreases, but does not eliminate, having uninterested students in the classes.

- Chess classes should not be free. Parents are going to hold the teachers to be accountable if they pay them. Teachers should not give people the idea that chess is some super-cheap activity where you can dump off your kids and go off to Walmart. If someone doesn't want to get paid, that's fine. Take the money and donate it to charity. BUT TAKE SOME MONEY!!

- Even if the parents like chess or the idea of chess there is no guarantee that the kid will like it.

- Some people do not like to think. They feel that thinking is boring. You cannot turn a non-thinker into a thinker. Life can't do it, so why would chess be able to?

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

If you have to mention a friend's experience does it mean that you have no first hand experience of your own ? Did the thought that your friend may not have been a very good "chess teacher" ever crossed your mind ? To succeed in teaching chess, like any other subject for that matter, you need to know your stuff, be structured and lively. If you don't, you can't expect to motivate and get the kid's attention.
When you write "I am aware of most of what is written on the subject" does it mean that you are "aware" but haven't read much of it, or that you are simply unaware of the vast amount of material on the subject that very few people on the planet can pretend to have read ?

Hello Jean,

I have a great deal of experience in teaching children chess, with about one hour in total during school hours and that was with a highly motivated group of kids who were in the chess club and hoping for some last minute pointers ahead of the Windsor Chess Challenge. In all it was a pleasant experience. I am more than willing to change my point of view if I see some evidence which can be contrary to my local experience and that of the other people who teach chess in Windsor.

For quite some time, I did not teach absolute beginner classes because I thought that my efforts were best directed at kids that showed some promise already. To test whether I might be able to help absolute beginners I taught a beginner class with one child that had severe behavioural problems and a few others that were not the best behaved but they mostly did like to play chess and they made enough progress in a few weeks to be able to play in events where they were required to record their moves. I decided that I would teach such classes again if I were given the opportunity and I did.

Last year I taught a beginner class where again we went through a seven week cycle from learning the moves and rules of chess to recording games by week six. Several of those children made excellent progress and have reached the point where they can attend the local advanced class. A few of them are in the middle of the pack in the advanced class. My thinking has evolved in that now I look for kids who are interested in chess regardless of their perceived level of talent as the talent reveals itself only later.

There is no doubt that teaching classes during school hours would be of great benefit to chess teachers. There would be more jobs and more money. That is definitely a consideration. In our locality we are already spread a bit thin and I am not sure how you would fill those positions if every school decided to add chess instruction to its curriculum. There would definitely be some huge potential for growth. It will be interesting to see how badly we will be hurt by the dispute between the teachers and the McGuinty government. If extracurricular activities are curtailed by a work to rule campaign we may have some problems continuing the momentum that we seem to be developing in Windsor.

Having observed my friend teaching kids for years I believe he is a good chess teacher and excellent organizer who is largely responsible for the disproportionate interest in chess among children in Windsor in comparison to the rest of Canada.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

There is no doubt that teaching classes during school hours would be of great benefit to chess teachers. There would be more jobs and more money. That is definitely a consideration.

What would you cut out of the curriculum to fit in chess?

They might also want such teachers to have provincial teaching certificates if it's on the curriculum. Music teachers in the schools need to be real teachers.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

What would you cut out of the curriculum to fit in chess?

They might also want such teachers to have provincial teaching certificates if it's on the curriculum. Music teachers in the schools need to be real teachers.

There is sometime an allowance made for some specialized areas. For example last I looked technical teachers did not have to have this certification - so drafting, auto mechanics, machine shop, electrical shop etc. They only need specialized knowledge and experience.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

What would you cut out of the curriculum to fit in chess?

They might also want such teachers to have provincial teaching certificates if it's on the curriculum. Music teachers in the schools need to be real teachers.

There are mechanisms for individuals with special skills to teach without a provincial teaching certificate. They use it to get coaches in other disciplines and sports. If a whole bunch of new positions opened for chess coaches and they required a teaching certificate I am sure the chess players wanting those jobs could meet the requirements (eventually).

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

There is sometime an allowance made for some specialized areas. For example last I looked technical teachers did not have to have this certification - so drafting, auto mechanics, machine shop, electrical shop etc. They only need specialized knowledge and experience.

Are we talking K to grade 6 and the higher grade classes with kids wanting to go to university where chess teachers without teaching certificates would teach chess in place of something currently on the curriculum OR are we talking the schools or colleges where they teach a trade and get them out of the system? The former group would likely do better with chess than the latter group learning trades.

As far as I know even a teaching assistant in the schools here in Ontario needs training and a certificate these days.