Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

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  • Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

    Aris Marghetis beat me to the punch a bit with his thread about the French banning agreed draws, but I had the same concept in mind in thinking about how to make draws very rare in chess.

    I did go a little further than the French though.

    Proposal For Making Draws In Chess Very Rare
    ============================================

    We have all been either part of or witness to discussions about how to eliminate "Grandmaster Draws" in organized (tournament or match play) chess. I'm going to take this discussion a step further and propose that draws of any kind are bad for organized chess. However I do recognize that eliminating any chance of a draw in a game of chess is problematic. Therefore I am going to propose ideas here for radically reducing the occurence of draws without eliminating them altogether.

    If we eliminate agreed draws by pure rule, and we then eliminate both 3 time repetition draws, perpetual check draws, and 50 move rule draws by some other mechanism, the only remaining chances for a draw in chess is via stalemate or lack of mating material on both sides or equal material that can't become unequal without a total blunder (i.e. K & R versus K & R). Thus draws should become very rare indeed. But not totally impossible.

    So the first part of making draws in chess extremely rare is to specify: no AGREED draws EVER.

    The second part is to declare that any time in organized chess that the two players wish their game to be declared a draw, it must be APPROVED BY THE TD.

    The TD would be looking for any one of the following characteristics before approving the draw:

    (i) stalemate
    (ii) lack of mating material on both sides
    (iii) equal or near-equal material that does not include pawns and is capable of mating for at least one side, but that cannot be forced into winning material by either side. This would include
    - K & N versus K & N
    - K & N & N versus K & N & N
    - K & B versus K & B
    - K & B & B versus K & B & B
    - K & R versus K & R
    - K & R & R versue K & R & R
    - K & R versus K & N
    - K & R versus K & B
    More complicated material matchups such as K & Q versus K & R & R or such would not automatically fall under this third characteristic, but would instead be left to fall under the next:

    (iv) 120 moves by both sides without a checkmate.

    Given these necessary characteristics, what do we do then about games that are headed for an inevitable draw by, say, 3 time repetition or 50 move rule or perpetual check?





    3 time repetition / perpetual check is something that could occur at any time, and if we outlaw agreed draws, players could still mutually play into 3 time repetition / perpetual check instead. So here's an idea to handle these situations: instead of a 3 time repetition (including via perpetual check) giving a player a chance to claim a draw, make it trigger a new rule. The new rule says: upon 3 time repetition having just occurred, the player on the move shall have the right to take any one of his / her captured pieces and place it on the board, on any empty square provided that it does not give check to the opposing King. This shall constitute that player's move. The opposing player, who now is on the move, has the right to respond with the same type of move: taking one of his / her captured pieces and placing it on the board on any empty square provided it does not give check to the opposing King. Once these two moves are completed, play continues as normal, until such time as another 3 time repetition should occur.

    What this means is, if a 3 time repetition is imminent, both players need to assess what pieces they can place on the board and where, and what it would do to the position. If it would totally destroy one player's position, that player will do whatever must be done to avoid 3 time repetition.



    If the move that creates the 3 time repetition is a move that puts the opposing King in check, then dropping a piece on the board is still a right of the player in check (Player A) if it can eliminate the check. If that isn't possible, or Player A prefers not to enact the right, then Player A cannot claim a draw but must get out of the check by other means, including continuing the repetition. However, the consequence of continuing the repetition is that Player B now has the first right to drop a piece on the board, and then Player A has the right to do the same in response.

    Remember that both players cannot just continue the repetition and try to "agree" on a draw. ALL DRAWS MUST BE SIGNED OFF BY THE TD. The TD must be brought over to determine if any game is a legitimate draw. If the TD sees that both players are just continuing a 3 time repetition without even attempting to drop pieces, s/he will reinstate the position at the point where the 3 time repetition has first occurred and force the player on the move to drop a piece and continue the game. Players will eventually become aware they can't just agree on draws and will stop trying.

    In the case where the first player with the right to drop a piece refuses to do so and instead breaks the repetition, the opportunity for either player to play a drop piece is lost, and so the game just continues with no drop piece moves until another 3 time repetition occurs.



    Now we come to the 50 move rule. The way to tackle this is via the same mechanism as for 3 time repetition: at the point that the rule first occurs, award each player in turn the right to drop a piece anywhere that the piece doesn't check the opposing King. But there is still a problem because requiring 50 consecutive moves of no captures or pawn moves is... well, it's a lot of moves. Thus we change the rule to be a 20 move rule. Much shorter, and whenever the rule is approaching occurence, each player must be alert to the consequences. It could happen in a middlegame just as easily as in an endgame. As with the 3 time repetition, if the first player to have the right to drop a piece because of 20 move rule decides not to do it, and makes another move that continues the 20 move rule, the right passes to the other player. The two players cannot simply continue playing non-captures and non-pawn moves forever; eventually the TD will get involved and force the piece dropping to occur.


    How to notate the dropped piece moves?

    I propose using the @ symbol, as follows:

    45. Q@d7 Q@e4

    This means White dropped a Queen on d7, and Black dropped a Queen on e4.

    All chess engines / pgn readers would have to be updated to handle this new symbol.

    Summary:
    ========

    The 4 characteristics I have given for a legitimate draw in chess would, IMO, make the occurrence of draws much rarer but not totally impossible. Along with this, the drop pieces rule and 20 move rule makes going the route of 3 time repetition / perpetual check or 20 consecutive moves of no captures or pawn moves by both sides a non-drawing proposition by allowing the position to very dynamically change in a way that could very easily favor one side and change the game completely.
    Only the rushing is heard...
    Onward flies the bird.

  • #2
    Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

    Originally posted by Paul Bonham View Post
    I'm going to take this discussion a step further and propose that draws of any kind are bad for organized chess.
    That's one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. Draws of any kind are bad for organised chess? Says who? Is "organised chess" losing paying fanfare because of too many draws? Is FIDE now on the same marketing level as the NHL, NBA, or MLB? I have yet to see people buying tickets to watch a chess tournament. If the organisers are bored of draws, then they should stop inviting drawmasters. If the chess world is bored of watching draws, well they're not paying, so who really cares?

    Moreover, even the thought of bringing back captured pieces as a remedy to a non-existent problem is even more absurd.

    What would be even worse for organized chess is forcing decisive outcomes when the position is completely equal. All that would do is leave people saying "it should have been a draw".

    The only thing that's bad for chess is pre-arranged outcomes. Other than that, there's nothing wrong with draws of any kind. You can't win tournaments if you don't win more games than the rest of the field. If a player wants to waste his career being a drawmaster, then he won't go very far.
    No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it.

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    • #3
      Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

      Clearly if you institute Shogi style piece replacement, draws become rare. But the chess world doesn't want that radical change. I advise your proposals be much less radical if you ever want them to get anywhere.

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      • #4
        Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

        Originally posted by Jordan S. Berson View Post
        That's one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. Draws of any kind are bad for organised chess? Says who? Is "organised chess" losing paying fanfare because of too many draws? Is FIDE now on the same marketing level as the NHL, NBA, or MLB? I have yet to see people buying tickets to watch a chess tournament. If the organisers are bored of draws, then they should stop inviting drawmasters. If the chess world is bored of watching draws, well they're not paying, so who really cares?
        First of all, nowhere in my post did I imply that drastically reducing draws would cause people to buy tickets to watch a chess tournament or would put FIDE on a marketing par with the NHL. The fact that you would jump to those conclusions as if I had made them means I can blithely dismiss your opinions as those of a troll.

        But it's always fun to make fun of a troll, especially when he shows himself to be a bit of a dim bulb. So to begin, it's strange how you ask "Is organized chess losing paying fanfare because of too many draws?" and then follow that up with "I have yet to see people buying tickets to watch a chess tournament". You don't seem to be able to associate cause and effect. For example: "Is it possible I'm not seeing people buying tickets to watch chess tournaments because there are too many draws?"

        Actually, I know what the problem is: you simply can't believe that one is related to the other. And that is fine, you are entitled to such an opinion, and you could be correct. COULD be correct.

        I will say this to your questions: reducing draws by itself would not make chess much, if any, more marketable to the general public. It is a necessary ingredient in any recipe that would do that, but by itself, no, it won't have that effect.

        But it might make more players want to come out and play events. I'll admit this is opinion only, it has not been thoroughly tested over time. But do keep in mind: other attempts to reduce draws (such as the BAPS scoring or the 3-1-0 scoring or simply awarding higher prizes to players who are tied for prizes but have less draws, which I think was done at Linares some years back) have been tried sporadically and have had limited success.

        Why do I say draws are bad? Firstly, because IMO there is a tendency once one has achieved a particular level in chess (GM, super GM) to be very satisfied with such draws -- to travel the world collecting appearance fees and playing simuls, and in competition to not tax oneself too much and not risk one's high standing with double-edged play. Secondly, because I think the ease with which a game can be made a draw tends to pull players of all levels in that direction. If you make a draw more difficult, you pull players in the direction of fighting chess.

        Just to make an example, a position with opposite coloured Bishops and equal number of pawns (no passed pawns) is somewhat easy to be lured into knowing that, ok, it's going to be a draw. But if you add the provision that any 3-time repetition or 20-move rule allows each player to reinstate captured pieces anywhere on the board that doesn't give check, suddenly the position is much more dynamic. Interesting. Exciting.




        Originally posted by Jordan S. Berson View Post
        Moreover, even the thought of bringing back captured pieces as a remedy to a non-existent problem is even more absurd.
        Ah, more fun making fun of a troll! I truly love it when someone who regularly plays a fantasy game with fantasy pieces and with esoteric moves such as castling or en passant or pawn promotion -- none of which have anything to do with anything in the real world -- ridicules some other game or rule as being "absurd". Earth to Jordan! The Stupid Store called, they're running out of YOU.



        Originally posted by Jordan S. Berson View Post
        What would be even worse for organized chess is forcing decisive outcomes when the position is completely equal. All that would do is leave people saying "it should have been a draw".
        Forcing decisive outcomes would be worse for organized chess? Says who? Is "organized chess" losing paying fanfare because of too many forced decisions? Is FIDE now on the same marketing level as the NHL, NBA, or MLB? I have yet to see people buying tickets to watch a chess tournament. If the organisers are bored of forced decisions, then they should stop inviting fighting chessplayers. If the chess world is bored of watching forced decisions, well they're not paying, so who really cares?

        Yes, Jordan: the door of trolling can swing both ways.

        And I guess (extrapolating your opinion) the next time a Stanley Cup finals game 7 is tied after 60 minutes, we should award the Cup to both teams. I'm sure every time an overtime Cup-winning goal has been scored, the fans leave shaking their heads and saying "It should have been a tie."

        What you exemplify with your thinking is how different chess players are from the general public. Chess players WOULD think an even chess game should be a draw, and WOULD likely think each team in a tied 7th game of the Stanley Cup should get 1/2 the Cup. The general public does not think this way, which is why you always get a winner in baseball, in golf tournaments, in tennis tournaments, in hockey playoffs and in basketball.

        This gives us a clue as to why chess can't find favor with the general public. And so it remains that only chess players or friends / relatives of chess players would even think to pay money to watch a chess tournament.

        But even after saying all that, I still maintain eliminating or reducing draws would not by itself make chess more marketable to the general public. Despite your trolling accusations, I was NOT thinking of this when I posted on how to reduce draws in chess. Please go troll somebody else.
        Only the rushing is heard...
        Onward flies the bird.

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        • #5
          Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

          Wow, Paul, you sound about as mature as any other grade two kid who calls people names when another kid his idea is absurd.

          Draws are bad for organized chess... fewer draws mean people will pay to watch chess tournaments. WTF are you smoking?
          No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it.

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          • #6
            Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

            Originally posted by Jordan S. Berson View Post
            Wow, Paul, you sound about as mature as any other grade two kid who calls people names when another kid his idea is absurd.

            Draws are bad for organized chess... fewer draws mean people will pay to watch chess tournaments. WTF are you smoking?
            I'm sorry, Jordan. I didn't realize you can't read English. You must be using Google Translate to convert my posts to Trollspeak so that you can misquote me.
            Only the rushing is heard...
            Onward flies the bird.

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            • #7
              Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

              Originally posted by Alan Baljeu View Post
              Clearly if you institute Shogi style piece replacement, draws become rare. But the chess world doesn't want that radical change. I advise your proposals be much less radical if you ever want them to get anywhere.
              True, Alan, and I already know the chess world doesn't want "radical" change. I'm not expecting my proposal to get anywhere, nor do I expect Chesstalkers to go gaga over them. The only thing I do expect is that all the decades-old problems of organized standard chess to continue into the indefinite future.
              Only the rushing is heard...
              Onward flies the bird.

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              • #8
                Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

                I find it funny how it's always the weaker players (sub 2000) who complain about too many draws on the top level, while the top level chess players never say anything about it. Did you see the Onischuk - Karjakin game from today? You think it's fair to ask them to play that position out another 50 moves? Draws happen in chess and if you ban them, good luck attracting Grandmasters to your tournaments. If you've read any serious chess book, the best piece of advice that any self-respecting author gives is to play a position with no or little risk. If you take away draws, say goodbye to 90% of the openings out there.
                Shameless self-promotion on display here
                http://www.youtube.com/user/Barkyducky?feature=mhee

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                • #9
                  Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

                  Originally posted by Bindi Cheng View Post
                  If you've read any serious chess book, the best piece of advice that any self-respecting author gives is to play a position with no or little risk.
                  Sound like a Petrosian-Karpov-Kramnik style.

                  There is another way - walk on the edge like Tal, Shirov, Topalov. Kasparov worked hard at home to crush his opponents on the board.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

                    Originally posted by Egidijus Zeromskis View Post
                    Sound like a Petrosian-Karpov-Kramnik style.

                    There is another way - walk on the edge like Tal, Shirov, Topalov. Kasparov worked hard at home to crush his opponents on the board.
                    Like Kasparov's match with Karpov which went on so long, because of draws, it was finally stopped?
                    Gary Ruben
                    CC - IA and SIM

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                    • #11
                      Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

                      Originally Posted by Bindi Cheng If you've read any serious chess book, the best piece of advice that any self-respecting author gives is to play a position with no or little risk.

                      Egidijus Zeromskis (in reply): Sound like a Petrosian-Karpov-Kramnik style.

                      There is another way - walk on the edge like Tal, Shirov, Topalov. Kasparov worked hard at home to crush his opponents on the board.



                      I recall the late GM Edmar Mednis wrote words to the effect that different skilled players may take on various levels of risk in attempting to acheive a won position, but once they acheive a won position everyone plays the same way: take no risks!

                      IMHO, working hard at home at all aspects of chess is something ideally everyone should do, if they have the time.

                      IMHO, Kasparov's approach to Karpov in their matches was like Alekhine's approach to Capablanca in their match: play uncharicteristically cautiously against a solid, formidable opponent. In the first K-K match this became a doubly attractive proposition for Kasparov once he lost for the fifth time and faced elimination in case of another loss [edit: in the end, the match was stopped after Karpov dropped a couple of games towards the end, and the unhealthy nature of such a long match was given as the reason for terminating it, if memory serves].

                      A player can naturally modify his risk tolerence at any given time, based on any number of circumstances.
                      Last edited by Kevin Pacey; Friday, 7th September, 2012, 08:27 PM. Reason: Grammar
                      Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
                      Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer

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                      • #12
                        Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

                        One time I played in the BC Closed and drew all seven games I played. Probably the greatest tournament I ever played in.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

                          Originally posted by Bindi Cheng View Post
                          If you take away draws, say goodbye to 90% of the openings out there.
                          I've tried to ensure that all, or at least the vast majority, of openings that I have played as Black at any point in my career have included at least some line(s) - preferably reliable ones - that I can use to play for a win with regardless if White is bent on drawing. This has been relatively easy for me, since I am playing below GM or even world elite level, where it's harder to win as Black if White is bent on drawing. Nevertheless IMHO there's somewhat more than a handful of Black openings against any given first move that could still be tried, even at that level, if a win is a must (e.g. the Najdorf against 1.e4).

                          In actual play I am not always averse to drawing - but I tend to loath [virtually] inevitable draws by e.g. repetition, or due to excessively simplified positions, etc., in the quiet of my study, especially if they might arise via an opening I usually hope to win with.
                          Last edited by Kevin Pacey; Friday, 7th September, 2012, 08:54 PM. Reason: Grammar
                          Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
                          Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer

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                          • #14
                            Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

                            If they take away draws will they
                            take away byes?

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                            • #15
                              Re: Making Draws in Chess Very Rare

                              Originally posted by James Williamson View Post
                              If they take away draws will they
                              take away byes?
                              No... if you want a bye, the organizer will shake your hand and wave you "buh-bye". :D

                              But seriously...good question.

                              You could still take a bye and the standings would be determined by win ratio.

                              For example, lets say its a 6-round Swiss. You request in advance a bye in one of the rounds. You finish winning 4 out of 5 games, losing the other. That's a .800 win ratio (4 divided by 5). Your bye doesn't count for a half point, it counts for no points but also for no game played.

                              Someone else plays all 6 games. She draws one and loses one and wins 4. The draw counts for half a point so her win ratio is .750 (4.5 divided by 6).

                              Under the current point system, she would finish ahead of you 4.5 points to 4 points. Under this win ratio system, YOU would finish ahead of her .800 to .750. This seems to make sense, in respect to rewarding those who play fighting chess (less draws).

                              However, the rule would be all byes have to be asked for in advance. For example, if you started the tournament winning your first 4 games, you couldn't then request byes for the last 2 rounds, guaranteeing you a win ratio of 1.0 and forcing anyone else at 4 wins to win both of their last 2 games.

                              If you have to either withdraw from the tournament or take a late bye because of some unforseen event, those byes would count the same as a draw, which decreases your chance of winning the event.
                              Last edited by Paul Bonham; Friday, 7th September, 2012, 11:53 PM. Reason: Clarification
                              Only the rushing is heard...
                              Onward flies the bird.

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