Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

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  • Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

    You know the story: Bulgarian Borislav Ivanov, a 25-year old, untitled computer programmer played at the Zadar Open in Croatia last December and scored 6/9, with a rating performance of 2697. He gained 115 points over his previous 2277 rating, gained in over 400 games over three years.

    He was suspected of using illicit electronic assistance, so he was “stripped searched” and they found nothing.

    He trains against chess engines: “Of course I practiced a lot with the computer, and after beating Rybka and Houdini by 10-0 each, I was absolutely sure that no-one was gonna stop me winning.”

    http://www.chessbase.com/Home/TabId/...peaks-out.aspx

    Two months after his Zadar performance he played at a 1970 level at Plovdiv.

    Then he had a 2696 rating performance at the March 16-17 rapid chess tourney at Villava, Spain, winning it.

    GM Kiril Gorgiev on that tournament: “My game against Borislav Ivanov was played at ten minutes plus five second increment. He played very fast, which came as a big surprise to me. He spent between five and seven seconds per move, and never took more time on any of his moves during the game. For the whole game he was supporting his chin with his two hands. He was making his moves quickly and vigorously, displaying a high level of self-confidence at all times.”

    http://www.chessbase.com/Home/TabId/...ce-050613.aspx

    I get the fact that there is a correlation between his moves and Houdini’s in classical chess. I can think of ways, in classical chess, that the computer moves could be transmitted to him. But in rapid chess? I would think that is impossible.

    If it is done, then it is like a magic illusion – now you see it, now you don’t type of thing. That is what interests me – a magic trick that has fooled everyone. How is it done?

    Eric Tohni at the ChessBase site: We know his device isn't on his upper body, as he variously wears a T-shirt or jacket, and the latter is the first item he offers to remove. We know it's fast enough to work in rapid. We know that it didn't work when the broadcast went down in Zardar. He doesn't go to the bathroom and appears to make constant visual contact with the board, as though he's thinking. Unless he does something with his feet, I don't see how he can be inputting moves into a computer. This means he must have an accomplice, or more likely two. He probably has one person in the hall operating a clicker that relays the opponents move and one person manning a computer who sends the next move to Ivanov's clicker. That's the only way fast enough for rapid chess. All the people crowing around Ivanov looking for "clues" to how he does it just make it easier by giving the first relayer cover.

    Peter Jameson
 This article alleging that Ivanov is a cheat provides no real evidence. How does he cheat even in rapid games watched by a horde of observers?

    Danny Purvis
 WWMGD? (What would Martin Gardner do?) There's no need to reinvent the wheel. Hire a professional magician. That's how psychic research was cleaned up years ago.

    Roger de Coverly at English Chess Forum: The combined evidence is that most of his moves match those of computer engines. But in the absence of a demonstrated method of consulting these engines during play, you can only fall back on the explanation that the consultations took place before play and that he's found a training method and positional eye that matches the top engines in many positions. The family of engines from Rybka onwards have supplemented brute force calculation with sophisticated positional fine tuning, so if you knew or reverse engineered what that was, your move choices would match many of those of the engines because you were essentially doing the same calculation.

    If he is cheating, then he has to have a method of communicating the board position or the latest move played to either an engine on his person or in the hands of third party accomplice(s). He also has to receive back the move recommended. Using the evidence of the rapid play tournament, all this has to be done at ten seconds a move.
    +++++++

    I am not interested in what measures should be put in place the next time Ivanov plays or whether he should be banned from tournaments or that there is a chess engine correlation with his moves – just whether you can cheat in this way at rapid chess. I think he may be a genuine genius!
    Last edited by Wayne Komer; Wednesday, 5th June, 2013, 12:29 PM.

  • #2
    Re : Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

    You definitely can. And there's no doubt he is cheating. A quick look at his games is enough. I hope he'll be banned for more than 4 months...

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    • #3
      Re: Re : Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

      Does he wear contacts or glasses while playing?

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      • #4
        Re: Re : Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

        There are lots of photos of him playing. He doesn’t have glasses but I don’t know about contacts

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        • #5
          Re: Re : Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

          Google contacts? lol

          As others have pointed out, there has to be a feedback loop (moves relayed) and some sort of way to transfer information to the player.
          check this out (SNL reviews Google Glasses): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=R-GKVyBb-KI
          ...Mike Pence: the Lord of the fly.

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          • #6
            Re: Re : Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

            It's a story like this that demonstrates yet another reason (cheating, or suspected cheating) why I sometimes wish that a more-or-less computer-resistant chess variant will soon replace normal 8x8 chess as the future standard version of chess. That's besides the fact that computers are now stronger than human World Champions, even, in the current version of standard chess.
            Last edited by Kevin Pacey; Wednesday, 5th June, 2013, 03:36 PM. Reason: Grammar
            Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
            Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer

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            • #7
              Re: Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

              Check the t-shirt to see whether something like "sponsored by Honda", or the words "ASIMO" are imprinted to a forearm that looks like this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2fQpZCamuBs

              One review though, of similar robots, says that some walk like they're seeking the washroom: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASIMO .

              Hopefully, there turns out to be nothing suspicious going on with the player or his opponents.

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              • #8
                Re: Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

                I enjoyed watching Kramnik playing against the robot!

                I checked the photos of Ivanov playing again and he appears to have no hearing aid/earpiece, no watch, no jewelry.

                Others have suggested a (contact) lens of some sort: “a one-off use of a bionic lens mated with a Houdini engine during a game would be very difficult to detect and to deal with”

                In those rapid games at Villava, I am still trying to figure out how you transmit what the last move was, then receive the new move from the computer and play it on the board within ten seconds and do this over all your matches. He just won on merit, I guess.

                Can anyone find his games in the XXIII Memorial Paz De Ziganda J.L. Gorostidi Oroigarria at Villava, Spain online? I can’t.

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                • #9
                  Re: Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

                  How about his shoes? He could have a receiver (vibration) in one, a transmitter in the other and an accomplice nearby with Houdini at the ready. The transmitter could be activated by tapping the shoe's heel on the floor. Tournaments are usually filled with people with nervous tics - who's going to notice someone tapping their feet. Ivanov and accomplice could use taps and pauses to identify rank and file of departure and arrival squares.
                  "We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
                  "Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
                  "If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey

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                  • #10
                    Re: Re : Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

                    Another game or chess variant may or may not overtake chess, but it certainly won't be for the reasons you cite. People play chess for competition or because they enjoy the mental exercise it provides. The fact that computers can play better than humans doesn't diminish either of these underlying motivations.

                    The internet has made it easier to find competition of pretty much any playing strength (online chess servers), and none of the benefits or enjoyment derived from chess are negatively impacted in any way by the existence of strong computer programs

                    In fact, it is rather obvious that strong computer programs, opening databases and other chess software have rather raised the strength of human players... I have no idea how this can be construed as a negative thing

                    Chess is a competition, a battle of wills, and none of us have to play a computer if we don't want to. The fact that a computer can do it better doesn't diminish anything. It's like saying that people enjoy running less because a car or train is faster, or boxing is less enjoyable because a wrecking ball hits harder than a human.

                    It's analogous to mental pursuits as well. People can't memorize, calculate or do many things as quickly or as well as computers, but this doesn't mean we can't derive enjoyment from these activities. It's a weak, negative mindset to think that because someone or something can do anything better than you that you can't both enjoy and benefit from that activity.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Re : Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

                      Originally posted by Nicolas Haynes View Post
                      Another game or chess variant may or may not overtake chess, but it certainly won't be for the reasons you cite. People play chess for competition or because they enjoy the mental exercise it provides. The fact that computers can play better than humans doesn't diminish either of these underlying motivations.

                      The internet has made it easier to find competition of pretty much any playing strength (online chess servers), and none of the benefits or enjoyment derived from chess are negatively impacted in any way by the existence of strong computer programs

                      In fact, it is rather obvious that strong computer programs, opening databases and other chess software have rather raised the strength of human players... I have no idea how this can be construed as a negative thing

                      Chess is a competition, a battle of wills, and none of us have to play a computer if we don't want to. The fact that a computer can do it better doesn't diminish anything. It's like saying that people enjoy running less because a car or train is faster, or boxing is less enjoyable because a wrecking ball hits harder than a human.

                      It's analogous to mental pursuits as well. People can't memorize, calculate or do many things as quickly or as well as computers, but this doesn't mean we can't derive enjoyment from these activities. It's a weak, negative mindset to think that because someone or something can do anything better than you that you can't both enjoy and benefit from that activity.
                      Very well stated Nicolas - brilliant in fact. I a weary of all the talk about chess variants and so-called "improvements" simply because I think there is a good reason there has not been any significant changes in the rules of chess for centuries: changes are not necessary. Monopoly could be played on a hexagonal board and thereby introduce new properties and more options, but I don't think people would bother with it other than for the novelty of it. There are probably hundreds of "new" and "fantastic" games introduced every year that simply die because they don't catch on. Tweaking an age-old game that has a deep history seems like a similar waste of time. Occasional gems appear with new board games, but they normally fail to attract more than a specific and small slice of the market.
                      ...Mike Pence: the Lord of the fly.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Re : Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

                        Originally posted by Kerry Liles View Post
                        Very well .
                        Please keep on topic. B.I. and engines.

                        If he used or not the engine during rapid, and he took only 10 sec per move to beat GM, I am impressed anyway:

                        1. (yes) He is technically advanced. Probably he will have a visit by state security guys.
                        2. (not) Give me his preparation methods :)

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                        • #13
                          Re: Re : Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

                          The possible problems associated with the suspicion that people may cheat at chess using computers might become more serious as time goes by.

                          If we hope the public, in North America at least, are ever (again!?) to gain widespread, great respect for chess and chessplayers, the fact that computers now outdo humans puts a bit of a crimp in that. One chesstalk poster noted long ago that average non-playing people he spoke with often had an immediate lower impression of chess and chessplayers upon learning computers were superior at the game to the best humans now.

                          It's all very well to compare physical limits of people to machines, but one selling point for chess used to be that it demonstrated the glorious intellect of man, as opposed to an unthinking machine for example. Trying to explain to the public that human thinking is better than machine brute force calculation, when it comes to chess, would now normally be a futile exercise. [edit: not to mention the average man might suspect cheating with computers would be hard/impossible to stop]

                          True, it's a good consolation for people who play chess that it is stimulating to them mentally. As long as the current version of standard chess rules, that is one of its remaining selling points.

                          Like I wrote, I only 'sometimes' wish a computer-resistant variant became the standard.

                          [edit: to repeat a point I've made before elsewhere, the rules for the standard version of chess have been 'tweaked' before, if only every so many centuries, for whatever reasons.]
                          Last edited by Kevin Pacey; Thursday, 6th June, 2013, 01:53 PM.
                          Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
                          Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer

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                          • #14
                            Re: Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

                            There's also numeric notaton. The number of the square the piece sits on and the number of the square where it lands. 1118 as an example.
                            Gary Ruben
                            CC - IA and SIM

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                            • #15
                              Re: Re : Borislav Ivanov and Rapid Chess

                              Originally posted by Egidijus Zeromskis View Post
                              Please keep on topic. B.I. and engines.

                              If he used or not the engine during rapid, and he took only 10 sec per move to beat GM, I am impressed anyway:

                              1. (yes) He is technically advanced. Probably he will have a visit by state security guys.
                              2. (not) Give me his preparation methods :)
                              Ok. I didn't know staying on topic was a new requirement of this board... ;)

                              I don't think anyone can show such remarkable and rapid improvement in such a short time frame. Personally, I believe he is getting computer assistance; I have no idea how, but many speculations seem possible (I liked Peter McKillop's theory about shoes). In any case, I don't see why he would deliberately score poorly in that one tournament - it would be lame as an attempt to introduce some statistical doubt by having such a poor result mixed in with amazing results. Perhaps the computer was down unexpectedly or other technical difficulties resulted in a more mixed result than he was trying to achieve?
                              ...Mike Pence: the Lord of the fly.

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