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Originally posted by Dilip Panjwani
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Yes, thanks Dilip, I realize that. :) Bob A. posted an excerpt from a Wiki article that said, essentially, that subjective mental states, like fear, have no influence on physical events. **If** that is true, then what would cause biochemical secretions to suddenly raise the heart rate? i.e. what triggers the uptick in biochemical secretions? I hope it's clear what I'm looking for. If not, I may have to consider breaking my New Year's resolution to stop using sarcasm."We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey -
The same neuronal activity which creates the electromagnetic pattern of you being fearful, also causes the secretion of chemicals which increase the heart rate...Originally posted by Peter McKillop View Post
If this answer is raising your heart rate and making you angry, I am sure other neurons in your brain will trigger sarcasm... :-)Comment
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Hi Peter M:
"Consciousness
In my post # 102, I was giving the epiphenomenalism description from Wikipedia.
I want to be clear that I do NOT accept epiphenomenalism. So I'll leave it to others to answer your question.
But I'd like to say four things about "consciousness", for me as a Theist:
1. It is NOT MERELY the result of "physical and biochemical events within the human body (sense organs, neural impulses, and muscle contractions, for example).
2. These biological elements are NOT solely "CAUSAL (Emphasis added) with respect to mental events (thought, consciousness, and cognition)".
3. These biological elements are NECESSARY to consciousness, but NOT the whole story.
4. The Life-Spirit in all living creates works in HARMONY with its "living" avatar, to create "consciousness". Without the effect of the Life-Spirit, what would exist would be a "consciousness" of a most diminished nature, where the word is likely misused when applied to what would really exist. Whether there would be something mental existing in a living avatar IF it was existing without also a "Life-Spirit" is purely speculative BECAUSE the fact is that no life exists without a "Life-Spirit", which is non-material, though initially in its existence, embedded in its avatar, and fully dependent on its harmony with its avatar.
~ Bob A (T-S/P)
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"Climate Change Suicide
Do an epiphenomenalist and a Theist see climate change suicide at all differently, given their differing views of "consciousness", and a conscious awareness of this "external" (From a Realist perspective) event that is unfolding?"
~ Bob A (T-S/P)Comment
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Ok, this is getting a bit comical! Dilip, Bob A. posted something (call it 'post A'). I asked him (not you) to explain/clarify it. Your explanation is also how I feel about the matter. However, it was Bob's explanation I wanted. Meanwhile, in another post, Bob has said, in effect, that he doesn't support the opinions he set out in post A and can't explain them. Who knew?Originally posted by Dilip Panjwani View Post"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De QuinceyComment
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Thank you, Bob, for spelling out what you believe. Can you help me understand what you mean by 'life-spirit' and 'avatar' in scientific terms, i.e. in terms which rely on deductive or inductive logic?Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
And if you believe that the concept of life is too mysterious to explain in logical terms, I would recommend that you see:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...-really-exist/Comment
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Bob, in future, as a courtesy to people who read your posts, I think you should let people know up front when you're posting something that you know little about and have no intention of discussing/defending.Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De QuinceyComment
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Hi Peter:
This term was being used by a number of commentators in this thread. I understand the term quite well, in fact.
But I felt many others in the thread might not. So I produced, for everyone, the working definition, with the source.
Also, I believe that those who believe something are generally better at explaining it than those opposed. So I was leaving it to the Materialists and Determinists to respond to your question.
But I take the point that often it is assumed that what is posted is not just general information being provided, but the personal view of the poster.
You are right, then, that after the definition, I should have made a disclaimer, to make clear I was just providing general information for the public.
I'll do that in future. Thanks.
~ Bob A (T-S/P)Comment
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You are a true gentleman, Bob... you never attack the messenger when you do not agree with the message...Comment
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We have been discussing some philosophy on this thread... philosophers often postuate entities and ideas to explain otherwise unexplainable stuff. However, as one dear professor once told me at Queen's: If it is not necessary to postulate (as when valid explanations already exist), then it becomes necessary not to postulate...Comment
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Hi Dilip:
I am capable of being quite brutally honest when I really blow!
But I avoid it like the plague.....one of my models on this was a good friend in chess, whom you knew: Phil Haley......I used to refer to him as the gentleman's gentleman!
As to your professors view, it sounds similar to the principle of Ockham's Razor:
Occam's razor, Ockham's razor, Ocham's razor (Latin: novacula Occami), also known as the principle of parsimony or the law of parsimony (Latin: lex parsimoniae), is the problem-solving principle that "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity",[1][2] sometimes inaccurately paraphrased as "the simplest explanation is usually the best one."[3] The idea is frequently attributed to English Franciscan friar William of Ockham (c. 1287–1347), a scholastic philosopher and theologian, although he never used these words. This philosophical razor advocates that when presented with competing hypotheses about the same prediction, one should select the solution with the fewest assumptions,[4] and that this is not meant to be a way of choosing between hypotheses that make different predictions.
Wikipedia
This is a principle I quite religiously follow in my "real" life (Not meaning of course that my life here on CT is not real
).
But one must not take the simple answer IF there is evidence that the more complicated is true (Eg. that man has a non-material "Life-Spirit" embedded in the body [What many Religions refer to as the "soul"]).
~ Bob A (T-S/P)Comment
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If we have free will, we can of course choose any answer we want, the simpler answer over the more complicated one, although in the case of man having a non-material soul, I wouldn't use the word "complicated" but rather "supernatural". I am with you, Bob, I accept the supernatural, although I doubt I do it from some inner need to satisfy Occam's razor. I think it comes from some inner knowledge that has been with me since I was born.Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
Nothing supernatural has ever been proven in this physical universe in the logical manner that Dilip is asking for, but nevertheless there are supernatural things we all accept. For example, the forces that surround us. Gravity; electromagnetism and electric charge; the force that keeps an atomic nucleus together; we have no explanation as to what exactly these things are or where they come from. We accept that electrons have negative charge, and we see the result of it every day in the electricity we use, but we just don't know what the bleep a negative or positive charge is.
So while Dilip tries to trap you (Bob) into some attempt at logically explaining the existence of life-spirit, I challenge Dilip at some sort of logical explaining of these forces and charges that must be existing for us because we all agree they exist since we have no other model. But I can imagine where that is going to go, into the realm of words or phrases that have no true meaning.
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Hi Pargat:
YOU: "if we have free will, we can of course choose any answer we want, the simpler answer over the more complicated one"
Me: agreed; but when you "Freely" choose the "Wrong" answer (Especially against the evidence - eg. the "system" stole the 2020 election from Donald Trump), reality is just going to stomp all over you and your free-will! LOL
YOU: "I accept the supernatural, although I doubt I do it from some inner need to satisfy Occam's razor."
ME: " Ockham's razor is just a problem-solving tool. In the case of the "Spirit/Mind/Body" problem, I don't come to my "Life-Spirit" conclusion BECAUSE of Ockham's razor. I have other evidence outside of this tool. And, in fact, I am refusing to use the Ockham's Razor principle of simplicity/efficiency, because I feel I do HAVE evidence to support my position that has nothing to do with Ockham's Razor (Except that this means I am choosing what I consider the more complex solution over the simpler solution proposed in this thread: epiphenomenalism).
~ Bob A (T-S/P)Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Sunday, 9th January, 2022, 09:12 AM.Comment
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Wonderful! Can you spell out the evidence, for my benefit? Thanks!Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View PostComment
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Hi Dilip:
Somehow........I just knew.........that I would not get this one past you: Evidence of the existence of "Life-Spirit" (Often referred to as "soul").
Give me a couple of my reincarnated Life-Spirit lives to get back to you on this one!!
Well..........I'll need a bit of time......have to soon go pick up my better half at the cooperative pottery studio......one key strategy when in trouble is to delay, delay, delay.
Oh well........trapped........Promise I won't forget.........no one has ever had the answer to this question since the time of man........but..........I will enlighten both you, and the world! I know everyone is waiting breathlessly...........
~ Bob A (T-S/P)Comment
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