Prediction - US Presidential 2024

[Dilip Panjwani]

Frank says this all (Libertarianism) appeals to the wealthy.

It is even more popular amongst freedom-loving liberals, who hate the conservatives' social agenda and the capitalists' collusion with politicians...

[Pargat Perrer]

Libertarianism will lead to safer products, as no business would risk the heavy penalties associated with harm due to defective products...

But you just told us greed is acceptable under Libertarianism, it is "fair competition". So if an apartment builder uses cheaper concrete (offered in the market by greedy concrete businessman) and the apartment collapses because of that concrete, there can be no penalties due to fair competition clause.

If now you are saying there can be penalties because people were harmed, how is it different from harm to renters due to excessive (greedy) rent increases?

It looks like "harm to others" under Libertarianism is a concept open to wide interpretation, in a way that benefits business men and women, at the expense of mere laborers.

[Pargat Perrer]

It is even more popular amongst freedom-loving liberals, who hate the conservatives' social agenda and the capitalists' collusion with politicians...

Ah yes, the magic word "freedom".

Very few can live with total freedom (wild west / anarchy) yet we are ALL told we can't live without it.

[Dilip Panjwani]

Ah yes, the magic word "freedom".

Very few can live with total freedom (wild west / anarchy) yet we are ALL told we can't live without it.

Agree. Freedom is always 'constrained' and at the same time 'enhanced' by the Natural Law!

[Dilip Panjwani]

But you just told us greed is acceptable under Libertarianism, it is "fair competition". So if an apartment builder uses cheaper concrete (offered in the market by greedy concrete businessman) and the apartment collapses because of that concrete, there can be no penalties due to fair competition clause.

If now you are saying there can be penalties because people were harmed, how is it different from harm to renters due to excessive (greedy) rent increases?

It looks like "harm to others" under Libertarianism is a concept open to wide interpretation, in a way that benefits business men and women, at the expense of mere laborers.

The concept and rules of 'fair competition' are as clear as the playing/rules of the game of chess... those who love the latter, appreciate and clearly understand 'fair competition'...

[Pargat Perrer]

The concept and rules of 'fair competition' are as clear as the playing/rules of the game of chess... those who love the latter, appreciate and clearly understand 'fair competition'...

LOL With explanations like that, it is no wonder Libertarianism, even the official version without natural law, is stuck in a permanent rut around 3 percent of total votes. Thank goodness North Americans cannot be swindled by this garbage.

I gave 2 valid examples of greed harming others. One, excessive rent increases, you say is fair competition and goes unpunished and renters suffer. The other, faulty concrete made with inferior ingredients, you also call fair competition, but when harm results the Libertarian government comes down like a hammer on the greedy concrete seller. ONLY AFTER THE HARM HAS BEEN DONE!!! You cannot explain why one is punished after harm is done, the other is not, and NEITHER is stopped BEFORE harm is done.

Libertarianism is a broken system.

[Frank Dixon]

>> What Donald Trump did was to declare hush money payments to Stormy Daniels as 'legal expenses', covered as his payments to his lawyer, Michael Cohen, who had already paid the exotic film star to keep quiet during the 2016 presidential election campaign. That is specifically what Trump was tried for and found guilty of; the mischaracterization of those payments. His lawyer served jail time for that and other crimes he committed at Trump's behest, and then wrote all about it in a book 'Guilty', which I have read (highly recommended). Cohen was a major witness at the trial. Trump is to be sentenced on his convictions from that trial in a few weeks. He could receive up to four years in prison on each of the 34 felony counts.

>> Libertarianism is an abstract, theoretical political concept, since it has never been implemented in any respectable society. It barely rates serious debate among political scientists -- see the wonderful book 'Handbook of Democracy', published by MIT Press. This book is a comprehensive survey of the very best political writing, insight, and research, going back into the 1700s.

>> Apparently, the current president of Argentina, Mr. Milei, an economist, is a libertarian. A hundred years ago, Argentina was comparable to Canada in national prosperity. As a country, it has astonishing assets. But since then, the corruption and mismanagement there has been so epidemic that Argentina has had to be bailed out by the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank on several occasions, and endured the 1970s, a decade in which tens of thousands of its people simply disappeared without trace. But they can produce good soccer teams!! Perhaps libertarianism will work there, but I would suggest that they need to get their systemic integrity, and organization, across the board, into better order first. My late father, Donald Dixon, an engineer, was involved in marketing efforts by Atomic Energy of Canada in the 1970s in Argentina, for the CANDU nuclear reactor, and made several trips to the country, dealing with government officials. Nothing significant happened from all of Dad's team's work; the country was so disorganized to deal with Canadian government that eventually Canada simply walked away. Argentina wanted Canada to lend them a billion U.S. dollars to pay for the reactors; this at a time when the country was essentially bankrupt. It went to PM Pierre Trudeau's cabinet for a decision; I am getting into confidential matters here, but it is now so long ago that it won't matter: as I related at Dad's celebration of life in 2014: Dad met with PM Trudeau, who decided to have a bit of fun with him: he said, 'Sorry, Don, no CAN DO!!'

[Dilip Panjwani]

There are numerous examples showing that there is less harm, more efficiency and more innovation in any society, when citizens decide for themselves, instead of being forced by governments to do stuff in a particular way. Those who criticize Libertarianism are generally those who love government authoritarianism, like a child looking at some grown-ups for instructions most of the time...

[Peter McKillop]

.... Those who criticize Libertarianism are generally those who love government authoritarianism ....

This is a wild assertion. Can you back it up with credible third-party analysis? Seems to me there's a lot of room for political thought between libertarianism and authoritarianism.

[Dilip Panjwani]

there's a lot of room for political thought between libertarianism and authoritarianism.

The two are at opposite extremes...

[Pargat Perrer]

There are numerous examples showing that there is less harm, more efficiency and more innovation in any society, when citizens decide for themselves, instead of being forced by governments to do stuff in a particular way. Those who criticize Libertarianism are generally those who love government authoritarianism, like a child looking at some grown-ups for instructions most of the time...

Numerous examples, except he can't give any LOL

Dilip, are you advocating for parents to give their children total freedom? As i have stated in these discussions, government is there to do the things no one else (driven by profit motive) will do, things that MUST be done to have a civilized, functioning society. No one else will look out for a child's welfare, the parents have to do it, and so it is with what you call "authoritarian" government (obviously an inflammatory word). The fact that the wealthy are expected to support these government functions is because the wealthy won't do it on their own.

A society driven purely by profit motive is a house divided against itself and cannot stand.

I have to wonder about Dilip's upbringing. Did he revolt against all restrictions his parents imposed?

[Dilip Panjwani]

How difficult it is for PP to understand that what is true of childhood is not necessarily so for adulthood! And a nasty troll tries to confuse such simple issues deliberately...

[Pargat Perrer]

How difficult it is for PP to understand that what is true of childhood is not necessarily so for adulthood! And a nasty troll tries to confuse such simple issues deliberately...

YOU wrote that critics of Libertarianism are like children, looking up to their parents (government). Now you are backing out, saying adulthood is different.

Nobody has to confuse anything, you do it all by yourself. And you are the one trolling, polluting all these threads with your Libertarian utopia fantasies. Nobody is buying what you are selling! Bob A. got sick of you and left these threads, time for me to do the same and you can keep your tiresome spiel going out to nobody.

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Pargat:

I am OK with these threads, though some people's logic escapes me. Overall, through time and sometimes a bit tiresome discussion, I have learned things.

But I need to rearrange my on-line agenda, to be more effective (Hopefully). So some things I am interested in, just had to be cut to get time for, to me, more important priorities I am now setting.

This is the one thread I will continue to monitor fairly regularly. The Negative Climate Change thread may be more spotty.

Bob A

[Pargat Perrer]

Hi Pargat:

I am OK with these threads, though some people's logic escapes me. Overall, through time and sometimes a bit tiresome discussion, I have learned things.

But I need to rearrange my on-line agenda, to be more effective (Hopefully). So some things I am interested in, just had to be cut to get time for, to me, more important priorities I am now setting.

This is the one thread I will continue to monitor fairly regularly. The Negative Climate Change thread may be more spotty.

Bob A

Ok Bob. You made the decision at the end of a long back-and-forth with Dilip, and he was again pathetically trying you to believe in his fantasy vision. So I thought maybe you were getting disgusted with his trolling. One thing for sure, he won't stop. I think there could be some kind of pathology there on his part.

Between your vision and his, yours has much more interesting and realistic possibilities. As I said before, I don't think your ideas are extreme or unworkable. The only thing is, all attempts at Marxism have led to corruption, possibly excepting Chile. So how to keep your vision from sliding into corruption is a big question, given that temptation will be there.