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Originally Posted by Nigel Hanrahan
Quebecers had a "quiet" revolution following "the great darkness" of the fascist Premier, Maurice Duplessis. I think they know how to deal with such dictatorial politics. Just look at the pounding that the students gave former Premier Jean Charest, following his attempt to impose a cruel austerity regime on them. Charest is now out of politics altogether. I'd say that's pretty decisive. We could learn a think or two from them in the rest of Canada (RoC).
... the students in the RoC are relatively speaking a bunch of sheep for putting up with much higher tuitions than in Quebec, was my conclusion.
It was not only the 75% increase in tuition, but also the jackboot attack on civil liberties of Bill 78 that the Quebec Liberals tried to impose by force that was at issue.
Exactly. I don't have a strong opinion on tuition fees. Nice if it's not expensive, but it definitely should not be free, otherwise your average plumber has a Ph.D. and that's counter-productive.
Bill 78, on the other hand... That's when you realize Americans got a few things right with their constitution.
Exactly. I don't have a strong opinion on tuition fees. Nice if it's not expensive, but it definitely should not be free, otherwise your average plumber has a Ph.D. and that's counter-productive.
Bill 78, on the other hand... That's when you realize Americans got a few things right with their constitution.
I agree with you both on Bill 78.
But I do support free university/community college tuition. Our youth are not skilled for today's economy, and are being forced into low paying/non-benefits part-time, contract, supply, relief jobs, sometimes 2 or 3 simultaneously, just to survive. We are equipping them badly for today's high tech economy. We need to do better, or we'll lose a generation.
The tuition fees were of $2000/year for 3 years (compared to about $32 000 for a degree in Ontario). The proposed raise was indeed of 75% over 5 years (although it was later reduced to something like 50% over 7 years). Note that this raise was not for low-income students. For the students with the lowest familial income, the tuition fees would have actually been much lower than before (thanks to more scholarships and bursaries). With all the tax advantages for students in Quebec, these fees are really nothing. Actually, many people are actually ending up being paid to study (as once again there are lots of scholarships and tax incentives).
The bill 78 was definitely a mistake, but things had gone so far already... I had made the mistake of studying in a francophone CEGEP. Before going to vote you could see lots of people armed with sticks and wearing masks, telling you to vote "against the Nazism", and you had to listen to the Communist Russian Anthem. And obviously, if you didn't vote according to their ideology, you were better be ready after. Half of the executive committee of our student association was even caught intimidating professors who refused to wear the red square (again armed and wearing masks).
Re: Re : Re: Rob Ford skewered like a shish kebab ...
Felix wrote:
At McGill, one of our biggest libraries was closed by them and many professors/researchers were fired by the budget cuts.
Staff was not "fired" at McGill - everyone over 60 was offered a retirement package (1 year salary if you left by Sept. 1, 2013). I'm happy that I took the package, and am enjoying my retirement. Enough people took the package so that it looks like layoffs will be avoided.
In addition - to generate more income (and to cut down or eliminate government subsidies for the faculty), McGill wanted to raise the tuition for MBA's to between $20k and $30k per year. The government said no.
Last edited by Hugh Brodie; Tuesday, 12th November, 2013, 11:59 PM.
Re : Re: Re : Re: Rob Ford skewered like a shish kebab ...
Hi Hugh,
I was mostly referring to research associates (who often don't have permanent positions). I talked to some who were still rather young and had to move out of the country... Still, I'm glad to see they managed to avoid many layoffs, thanks to retirement packages.
Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Rob Ford skewered like a shish kebab ...
More astonishing revelations today at Toronto City Council, where the motion to remove Rob Ford as Mayor is being debated. Most major Canadian media outlets (Globe, Star, Sun, Post, CBC, CTV, Citizen) have thorough online coverage. As reported, there was an attempt by Ford to physically attack one of the Councillors arguing against him; Ford was restrained in time; a good thing since Ford is about twice the physical size of the Councillor! Ford today admitted to buying illegal drugs during his term as Mayor, but insists he doesn't have a problem with addiction.
Also, Ontario Superior Court has just ordered the release of several hundred pages of documents from a Toronto Police Services investigation; much of the material apparently involves activities by Ford while Mayor. It's highly possible that this material could lead to further revelations of a controversial nature, and possibly even criminal charges against Ford.
No one can make this stuff up; after this episode, very little fiction involving public figures will be unbelievable, since the truth here is already so bizarre.
Originally Posted by Nigel Hanrahan
Quebecers had a "quiet" revolution following "the great darkness" of the fascist Premier, Maurice Duplessis. I think they know how to deal with such dictatorial politics. Just look at the pounding that the students gave former Premier Jean Charest, following his attempt to impose a cruel austerity regime on them. Charest is now out of politics altogether. I'd say that's pretty decisive. We could learn a think or two from them in the rest of Canada (RoC).
I recall hearing more than one comment (at the time of the Quebec student protestations about Charest's tuition hikes) that compared to college tuitions in the RoC, Quebec students were showing just how ungratefully entitled they felt to cheap (if not free) post-secondary education. I recall the hikes Charest proposed for tuitions were described by these commentators as relatively quite modest.
...
Here's a link, which includes a description of 2007 affairs in regards to tuitions, which is perhaps the time that I'm recalling. In 2007 Charest's proposed increase to tuition at that point ($500 over 5 years) could be reasonably described as modest (however he evidently later uped the ante), and the students (at least some) already found that offensive enough in 2007 to begin protesting:
There are those in RoC who also oppose excessively high tuition fees ... and give their reasons...
Originally posted by Linda McQuiag
I find it alarming just how high student tuition is these days and how much debt students are expected to carry,”said Linda McQuaig, NDP candidate for Toronto Centre. “Each year we get richer and richer as a society, but we’re told we can afford less and less. It doesn’t make any sense. It’s bullshit.”
I'm not sure how common a view it is, but some time ago an older family member opined to the rest of us his view that banks, corporations and governments in Canada basically "take all the money off the table and leave nothing for anybody else... they're a bunch of crooks". Along with various scandals of the sort this thread is supposed to be about (when on topic), it jives with my own suspicion that we as a society are slowly but surely paying a heavy price for abandoning (to at least some degree) our Judao-Christian heritage and principles.
Students in the RoC may well (and should) organize to protest high tuitions in the RoC, but they should not riot or use coercion.
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
I'm not sure how common a view it is, but some time ago an older family member opined to the rest of us his view that banks, corporations and governments in Canada basically "take all the money off the table and leave nothing for anybody else... they're a bunch of crooks". Along with various scandals of the sort this thread is supposed to be about (when on topic), it jives with my own suspicion that we as a society are slowly but surely paying a heavy price for abandoning (to at least some degree) our Judao-Christian heritage and principles.
Students in the RoC may well (and should) organize to protest high tuitions in the RoC, but they should not riot or use coercion.
Quite a philosophical can of worms you are opening there. For example, the Christian Bible has Jesus telling his flock things like "Turn the other cheek" and "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" and so on... basically saying go through life in this world letting everyone step all over you.
But can you imagine if 10% of society were criminal and the other 90% followed the instructions of Jesus? What kind of "wealth gap" do you think you'd see then?
Last edited by Paul Bonham; Thursday, 14th November, 2013, 03:17 AM.
Reason: changed "wealth effect" to "wealth gap"
Only the rushing is heard...
Onward flies the bird.
Quite a philosophical can of worms you are opening there. For example, the Christian Bible has Jesus telling his flock things like "Turn the other cheek" and "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" and so on... basically saying go through life in this world letting everyone step all over you.
But can you imagine if 10% of society were criminal and the other 90% followed the instructions of Jesus? What kind of "wealth gap" do you think you'd see then?
I rather like that football player (forget his name) who once said that just because he was a Christian didn't mean he was a wimp.
The Bible needs a lot of study to really understand what it completely says about wealth distribution, I think, and I don't pretend to know. However I have a sneaking suspicion that somewhere along the line at least some (hopefully less important) parts of the Bible got lost in (a) translation(s). Doesn't keep me from trusting its principles I'm familiar with (if only by upbringing) that I feel are true in my heart, however.
[edit: The most important principle I hold to be true (besides loving God with all your heart and mind) is the golden rule, i.e. do unto others as you would have them do onto you - every other principle can follow from that, I would imagine.
Examples of things in the Bible as currently written that I have my 'doubts' about would be the whole Book of Revelation (and earlier veiled references to it in other books of the Bible), and the rather harsh (to me anyway) notion that one must be a believer while one is alive or else be damned forever automatically - personally I think at least some people get second chances to become believers and accept JC as Savior, even after they pass on. Meanwhile, while still alive, by following Biblical principles, one at least lives well and has a better chance of being accepted after passing on, IMHO. Makes me wonder, did some translator(s) get too zealous?!]
[edit: here's a link that might be of some interest to you, Paul. It's a debate about cooperative vs. competitive strategies, albeit just in games (still, wwjd, assuming he cared?) :
I doubt the turnout level. The poll has it as 58% which is higher than recent levels. The turnout when Ford won was around 53% and that was up from under 40% in the previous couple of city elections. We've already seen Ford's vote will come out so I'm concluding some of the "committed" voters are running on emotion right now.
Interesting that 42% don't care enough to bother to commit to vote. I figure there are some Ford voters there who don't want to admit they will vote.
What I think should happen is the province should step in and call an election in Toronto now. This spectacle has gone far enough. It seems some are simply trying to get their faces in front of the cameras, of which there are no shortage, so their voters can see them.
"The message he needs to hear, from every corner, is not get help, but get out."
Originally posted by Andrew Coyne
We have seen, by turns, the remorseless apology (“All I can do is apologize and move on”), the bargaining for time (“I have nothing left to hide”), the pseudo-legal clam-up (“I can’t say anything, it’s before the courts”), the non-denial denial (“I do not smoke crack; I am not an addict”), the Clintonian verb-parsing (“you didn’t ask me the right question”), the claim of diminished responsibility (“in one of my drunken stupors”), the appeal to impossible standards (“I’m not a perfect person”), the appeal to no standards (“everybody does it”), the invocation of class envy (“all these rich and elitist people … they’re the biggest crooks around”), the plea for sympathy (“this is the second-worst day of my life, after the day my father died”), the declaration of pure, all-devouring solipsism (“I love this job”). And that’s just a partial list.
His conclusion?
"The mayor’s actions Monday were quite deliberate. They reflected the influence, not of intoxicants, but his own limitless ego and unformed character. As such it is not Ford who has the problem; it’s the city. The message he needs to hear, from every corner, is not get help, but get out."
Dogs will bark, but the caravan of chess moves on.
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