The Value of Money

[Paul Bonham]

Re: The Value of Money

Originally Posted by Paul Bonham
I think we can all agree that in the natural world of Darwinian evolution, there is no "cooperation". There is pure and unadulterated competition.

This is a parody of evolutionary theory and shows that you don't seem to understand it at all. I suggest a visit to P.Z. Meyer's blog (an actual scientist) for a corrective view, a month or so of daily reading there should help re-educate you. Evolution has nothing to do with competition, it has everything to do with "fitness". Cooperation is an excellent survival strategy for many species, including humans. Species evolve along with ecosystems and each adapts to the other.

Ed, you cannot simply proclaim that because someone doesn't follow your beliefs it follows that they "don't seem to understand it at all." There can only be one truth, and if you want to prove it is your version, then go ahead, PROVE IT.

Competition begets fitness. The two are inextricably linked. You are differentiating them as if they have no relationship. As for what you are calling "cooperation", I do know there are a few examples in the natural world of two species that act in mutually beneficial manner. In fact, believers of intelligent design point to the whole ecosystem (and its myriad of interrelationships that seem to act in concert to the benefit of all) as proof of their postulates.

But the word "cooperation" implies that in these cases, the species involved actually put their heads together in the distant past and said "Hey, if you scratch my back I'll scratch yours". The beginning of the relationship between them can be easily attributed to random happenstance, and the continuation of it to evolution in which genes transmit both knowledge and physical attributes to offspring.

(If you don't believe genes can transmit knowledge, then ask yourself how a spider could ever have evolved. The only alternative is intelligent design, which in the case of the spider at least makes much more sense.)

The word "cooperation" is grossly misapplied in these relatively rare cases. You'd have to prove that there is at least one specific example of two species literally cooperating with one another IN A DELIBERATELY PLANNED MANNER. The proof of one example could then be extrapolated to all other examples as a hypothesis, rather than having to prove them all.

Please then, give us one example where two species wilfully and in a planned and deliberate manner cooperated with one another. And don't use humans, we are virtual newcomers to the scene and are very different from all other species.

As for your P.Z. Myers (note spelling correction), well, I've always claimed to be open-minded and having never heard of him before, I will approach him as a potential source of learning and adjustment. But my initial reading hasn't disclosed any compelling arguments. He seems to have strong and distinct biases.



Originally Posted by Paul Bonham
The capitalist laissez-faire market system was modeled on this: survival of the fittest.

No, it developed long before Darwin came along. The parody of Darwin that you apparently believe in was just tacked on as an excuse for the system. "Social Darwinism" is just pseudoscience. And Darwin is by no means the last word in evolution theory - science moves on and learns new things.

Yes, your chronological facts are correct. Laissez-faire did come first, and Darwinism when it appeared was used to reinforce the idea. But your 'Social Darwinism is just pseudoscience' is only opinion. If you really want to prove it, back it up. Present us with arguments and facts. It is essentially the core of what we are debating here.

[Ed Seedhouse]

Re: The Value of Money

[I]Originally Posted by Paul Bonham

Ed, you cannot simply proclaim that because someone doesn't follow your beliefs it follows that they "don't seem to understand it at all." There can only be one truth, and if you want to prove it is your version, then go ahead, PROVE IT.

You can make all sorts of unsubstantiated claims about how evolution works without providing any evidence, but when I correct you you demand evidence from me! First remove the beam from your eye before you chastise me about the splinter in mine.

Yes, your chronological facts are correct. Laissez-faire did come first, and Darwinism when it appeared was used to reinforce the idea. But your 'Social Darwinism is just pseudoscience' is only opinion. If you really want to prove it, back it up. Present us with arguments and facts. It is essentially the core of what we are debating here.

Once again you ask me to do your homework. The fact that you don't understand the fact that "Social Darwinism" is pseudoscience is only evidence of your own ignorance. However:

"It is important to note that Darwin did not extend his theories to a social or economic level, nor are any credible evolutionists subscribing to the theories of Social Darwinism. Herbert Spencer's philosophy is only loosely based on the premises of Darwin's work."

From http://www.allaboutscience.org/what-...winism-faq.htm

[Paul Bonham]

Re: The Value of Money

You can make all sorts of unsubstantiated claims about how evolution works without providing any evidence, but when I correct you you demand evidence from me! First remove the beam from your eye before you chastise me about the splinter in mine.

Naaaa.... I don't think so. I'm just talking about normal Darwinian evolution theory, very well known and understood. You are the one spouting other theories from someone relatively unknown. Like it or not, the onus is on you.

Once again you ask me to do your homework. The fact that you don't understand the fact that "Social Darwinism" is pseudoscience is only evidence of your own ignorance. However:

"It is important to note that Darwin did not extend his theories to a social or economic level, nor are any credible evolutionists subscribing to the theories of Social Darwinism. Herbert Spencer's philosophy is only loosely based on the premises of Darwin's work."

From http://www.allaboutscience.org/what-...winism-faq.htm

From the page you provided a link to:
"Some even extended this philosophy into a micro-economic issue, claiming that social welfare programs that helped the poor and disadvantaged were contrary to nature itself. Those who reject any and all forms of charity or governmental welfare often use arguments rooted in Social Darwinism."

That is not what I am doing here. I am in favor of pretty much all government programs to aid the poor. I am against most U.S. Republican Party policies that do things like cut off people from food stamps or forces the people of Flint Michigan to drink lead-tainted water because that saves money in the state budget.

Here we were talking about lotteries which effectively elevate some random member of society to the ranks of the ultra-wealthy. I assert that any random element like this will disrupt to some degree, the optimal working of the economy, which is loosely based on Darwinian evolution in that the top earners in society are the ones best suited to be reinvesting in it. And I further stated that there are exceptions already because the real world is imperfect, and so you can have a Donald Trump who becomes ultra-wealthy by taking advantage of tax loopholes that are provided only to real estate developers, resulting in him not paying any taxes for something like 18 years.

So you want to call me a Social Darwinist, buy I am far from that in that I would not advocate the "extinction" of anyone in society.

Seeing that you are trolling, I won't respond to you further.

Except to say that link you provided is playing it fast and loose, on the one hand saying that "(Scientists and evolutionists) will admit to an obvious parallel between Darwin's theory of Natural Selection and Spencer's beliefs. In nature, the strong survive and those best suited to survival will out-live the weak" and then putting in that bit you included about "credible" evolutionists (their own phrase, left undefined).

[Neil Frarey]

Re: The Value of Money

Flint Michigan to drink lead-tainted water

Flint has had a Democratic Mayor at least since 2003.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lint,_Michigan

In 2014, under yet another pathetic big city Democratic mayor, Mayor Dayne Walling (Flint Mayor 2009-2015):

The Flint water crisis is a drinking water contamination issue in Flint, Michigan, United States that started in April 2014. After Flint changed its water source from treated Detroit Water and Sewerage Department water (which was sourced from Lake Huron as well as the Detroit River) to the Flint River (to which officials had failed to apply corrosion inhibitors), its drinking water had a series of problems that culminated with lead contamination, creating a serious public health danger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis

And for what it's worth I've been honored to do several graphics and a couple of installations all about the subject of money. 50% OFF coupon USA, went viral. I'll post links to some images if you'd like.

Perhaps after you've done some fact checking on your Democratic Party & Flint ...?

[Ed Seedhouse]

Re: The Value of Money

Flint has had a Democratic Mayor at least since 2003.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_...cial_emergency
"Between 2011 and 2015, Flint was in receivership, with city finances controlled by a series of four emergency managers appointed by Governor Snyder.[22] The city continued in receivership, but under the lesser oversight of a Receivership Transition Advisory Board.[23]"

Perhaps after you've done some fact checking on your Democratic Party & Flint ...?

You might try following your own advice, but I don't think I'll hold my breath while waiting for that.

[Neil Frarey]

Re: The Value of Money

Emergency Managers appointed by Governor Synder

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financ...cy_in_Michigan

December 2011 - August 2012

Michael Brown

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michae...an_politician)

Democratic Party


October 2013 - January 2015

Darnell Earley

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darnell_Earley

Democratic Party


How many Flints until we learn our lesson?

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...cratic-pattern

Flint is the Democratic approach to governance made concrete: It poisons everything it controls.


***

Ed, fact check first ... OK?

Thanks for coming out!

And ya, Flint's current Mayor is a Democrat.

Even with your biased opinion ... do ya see a pattern here Ed?

[Paul Bonham]

Re: The Value of Money

Flint has had a Democratic Mayor at least since 2003.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lint,_Michigan

In 2014, under yet another pathetic big city Democratic mayor, Mayor Dayne Walling (Flint Mayor 2009-2015):

The Flint water crisis is a drinking water contamination issue in Flint, Michigan, United States that started in April 2014. After Flint changed its water source from treated Detroit Water and Sewerage Department water (which was sourced from Lake Huron as well as the Detroit River) to the Flint River (to which officials had failed to apply corrosion inhibitors), its drinking water had a series of problems that culminated with lead contamination, creating a serious public health danger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis

...

Perhaps after you've done some fact checking on your Democratic Party & Flint ...?

Mayor Schmayor.

Looks like YOU are the one needing to do some fact checking.

First, let's make it clear the Michigan state government is Republican-controlled:

Michigan's elected executive officers are:

Rick Snyder (R)
Governor

Brian Calley (R)
Lieutenant Governor

Ruth Johnson (R)
Secretary of State

Bill Schuette (R)

All Republicans. Ok, now....From the very wikipedia page you provided a link to:

On October 21, 2015, (Governor) Snyder announced the creation of a five-member Flint Water Advisory Task Force... In December 29, 2015, the Task Force released its preliminary report, saying that the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ) bore ultimate blame for the Flint water crisis. The task force wrote that the DEQ's Office of Drinking Water and Municipal Assistance (ODWMA) adopted a "minimalist technical compliance approach" to water safety, which was "unacceptable and simply insufficient to the task of public protection." The task force also found that "Throughout 2015, as the public raised concerns and as independent studies and testing were conducted and brought to the attention of MDEQ, the agency's response was often one of aggressive dismissal, belittlement, and attempts to discredit these efforts and the individuals involved. We find both the tone and substance of many MDEQ public statements to be completely unacceptable." The task force also found that the Michigan DEQ has failed to follow the federal Lead and Copper Rule (LCR). That rule requires "optimized corrosion control treatment," but DEQ staff instructed City of Flint water treatment staff that corrosion control treatment (CCT) would not be necessary for a year. The task force found that "the decision not to require CCT, made at the direction of the MDEQ, led directly to the contamination of the Flint water system."

and...

In his annual State of the State address on January 19, 2016, Snyder announced that he would release all of his emails from 2014 and 2015 regarding the crisis. The following day, the governor's office released 274 pages of emails. The New York Times summarized, "the documents provide a glimpse of state leaders who were at times dismissive of the concerns of residents, seemed eager to place responsibility with local government and, even as the scientific testing was hinting at a larger problem, were reluctant to acknowledge it." Later that month in a class action lawsuit related to the crisis, Snyder and the MDEQ were served subpoenas for the release of additional emails dating back to the beginning of 2011. Emails highlighted by Progress Michigan in January 2016 indicate that Michigan state officials were trucking in bottled water to some of their own employees stationed in Flint as early as January 2015...

and...

On January 22, 2016, two MDEQ employees (Liane Shekter Smith, former chief of the department's Office of Drinking Water and Municipal Assistance; and Steve Busch, former district supervisor in the division) were suspended, pending an investigation, as a result of questions regarding actions related to water testing in Flint. In response, Snyder said, "Michiganders need to be able to depend on state government to do what's best for them and in the case of the DEQ that means ensuring their drinking water is safe. Some DEQ actions lacked common sense and that resulted in this terrible tragedy in Flint. I look forward to the results of the investigation to ensure these mistakes don't happen again."

and...

On March 4, 2016, a report released by the Michigan Auditor General's office called the MDEQ's Office of Drinking Water and Municipal Assistance "not sufficient" in its oversight of the state's Community Water Supply Program.

Like I said.... Mayor Schmayor..... and hey Neil, don't even think of running for any political office yourself, given your knee-jerk reactions and lack of fact-checking. Did it even occur to you that it is the CLINTON CAMPAIGN and not the Trump campaign that keeps bringing up the Flint crisis? Facts, boy, facts!

[Neil Frarey]

Re: The Value of Money

Switching water source


Starting in 2011, Genesee County had spearheaded the development of the Karegnondi Water Authority (KWA) to supply it and Lapeer and Sanilac counties—plus the cities of Lapeer and Flint—with water.[24] On March 25, 2013, Flint City Council voted 7-1 to approve the purchase of 16 million gallons per day from the KWA rather than go with Flint River water as a permanent supply.[25] Flint emergency manager (EM) Ed Kurtz and Mayor Dayne Walling approved the action on March 29 and forwarded the action for the State Treasurer to approve.[26]


Lawsuits

On November 13, 2015, four families filed a federal class-action lawsuit in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan in Detroit against Governor Rick Snyder and thirteen other city and state officials, including former Flint Mayor Dayne Walling and ex-emergency financial manager Darnell Earley, who was in charge of the city when the switch to the Flint River was made. The complaint alleges that the officials acted recklessly and negligently, leading to serious injuries from lead poisoning, including autoimmune disorders, skin lesions, and "brain fog."[160][161][162] The complaint says that the officials' conduct was "reckless and outrageous" and "shocks the conscience and was deliberately indifferent to ... constitutional rights."[162]

The legal doctrines of sovereign immunity (which protects the state from suit) and official immunity (which in Michigan shields top government officials from personal liability, even in cases of gross negligence) resulted in comparatively few lawsuits being filed in the Flint case, and caused large national plaintiffs' law firms to be reluctant to become involved with the case.[163]

On June 22, 2016, the Michigan Attorney General's Office filed a civil suit against engineering firms Veolia North America and Lockwood, Andrews & Newnam (LAN) who were hired to consult Flint water plant officials after the switch to the Flint River in April 2015. The lawsuit accuses Veolia and LAN of professional negligence and public nuisance. Veolia is also accused of fraud. Veolia called the accusations "baseless, entirely unfounded and [appearing] to be intended to distract from the troubling and disturbing realities that have emerged as a result of this tragedy," and then added, "In fact, when Veolia raised potential lead and copper issues, city officials and representatives told us to exclude it from our scope of work because the city and the EPA were just beginning to conduct lead and copper testing."[181]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis

***

Hey Paul, next time fail harder.


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[Paul Bonham]

Re: The Value of Money

Switching water source


Starting in 2011, Genesee County had spearheaded the development of the Karegnondi Water Authority (KWA) to supply it and Lapeer and Sanilac counties—plus the cities of Lapeer and Flint—with water.[24] On March 25, 2013, Flint City Council voted 7-1 to approve the purchase of 16 million gallons per day from the KWA rather than go with Flint River water as a permanent supply.[25] Flint emergency manager (EM) Ed Kurtz and Mayor Dayne Walling approved the action on March 29 and forwarded the action for the State Treasurer to approve.[26]


Lawsuits

On November 13, 2015, four families filed a federal class-action lawsuit in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan in Detroit against Governor Rick Snyder and thirteen other city and state officials, including former Flint Mayor Dayne Walling and ex-emergency financial manager Darnell Earley, who was in charge of the city when the switch to the Flint River was made. The complaint alleges that the officials acted recklessly and negligently, leading to serious injuries from lead poisoning, including autoimmune disorders, skin lesions, and "brain fog."[160][161][162] The complaint says that the officials' conduct was "reckless and outrageous" and "shocks the conscience and was deliberately indifferent to ... constitutional rights."[162]

The legal doctrines of sovereign immunity (which protects the state from suit) and official immunity (which in Michigan shields top government officials from personal liability, even in cases of gross negligence) resulted in comparatively few lawsuits being filed in the Flint case, and caused large national plaintiffs' law firms to be reluctant to become involved with the case.[163]

On June 22, 2016, the Michigan Attorney General's Office filed a civil suit against engineering firms Veolia North America and Lockwood, Andrews & Newnam (LAN) who were hired to consult Flint water plant officials after the switch to the Flint River in April 2015. The lawsuit accuses Veolia and LAN of professional negligence and public nuisance. Veolia is also accused of fraud. Veolia called the accusations "baseless, entirely unfounded and [appearing] to be intended to distract from the troubling and disturbing realities that have emerged as a result of this tragedy," and then added, "In fact, when Veolia raised potential lead and copper issues, city officials and representatives told us to exclude it from our scope of work because the city and the EPA were just beginning to conduct lead and copper testing."[181]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis

***

Hey Paul, next time fail harder.

Hey Neil, how long did you spend on that pathetic reply? Pfffft..... lawsuits! And one of them from the Michigan state AG Office ("find us a scapegoat!")

I stand by my previous post, and the findings of an independant task force:

independent-investigators-state-officials-mostly-to-blame-for-flint-water-crisis

According to task force member Ken Sikkema, ""We interviewed over 60 people, we read thousands if not hundreds of thousands of pages of documents, we deliberated probably 20 times as a task force, and the findings and the recommendations are robust, comprehensive, across 7 different agencies."

And this task force put the vast bulk of the blame squarely on the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality and the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services. The Mayor and city officials were mere actors in the drama, all the direction was coming from the state government.

You can believe this independant task force... or you can believe Trump apologist and liberal-hater Neil Frarey who cherry-picks sections from Wikipedia that mention the Democratic city mayor and Emergency Manager. The same Neil Frarey that spent hours writing a post that said Trump is a great "American individual", but who STILL can't point to anything that Donald Trump has done that singles him out. Duh!


Some zingers on Trump's latest controversy from SNL tonight:

"Looks like Trump finally got what he wanted.... a working microphone."

"Trump tried telling us Mexico is sending us rapists, and then we find out he likes to assault women. The only way he could have been more hypocritical is if he said it in Spanish."

"Trump is trying to discount what he said as locker room talk. Which locker room, Penn State?"

[Neil Frarey]

Re: The Value of Money

This "locker talk" from Trump (and from Billy Bush too) is completely repulsive ...absolutely unacceptable.

Trump has said some awful things ... Clinton has DONE some awful things.


.

[Ed Seedhouse]

Re: The Value of Money

Trump has said some awful things

No, he boasted about actually committing sexual assault. If sexual assault isn't something one does, what is? And we have his confession on tape and he has admitted he said that confession.

Clinton has DONE some awful things.

Claim made completely without supporting evidence noted.

[Neil Frarey]

Re: The Value of Money

Ed, good see you. Back from Flint so soon?

So OK, let's start with Benghazi:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/...y-clinton.html

But hey, I'm sure you and Paul both know more than Gregory N. Hicks.

Right?

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: The Value of Money

This "locker talk" from Trump (and from Billy Bush too) is completely repulsive ...absolutely unacceptable.

Trump has said some awful things ... Clinton has DONE some awful things.


.

Too bad there isn't a none of the above option. Trump did do well in last night's debate.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: The Value of Money

Too bad there isn't a none of the above option. Trump did do well in last night's debate.

Well, he did better than the first debate, but......his campaign continues to bleed out.

Today, Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, "I will no longer defend Trump".

[Ed Seedhouse]

Re: The Value of Money

Ed, good see you. Back from Flint so soon?

So OK, let's start with Benghazi:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/...y-clinton.html

You think Fox news is an authority worth citing? Hah hah hah.