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But I agree, it was ridiculous for him to win the Nobel Peace Prize before he even did anything.
Sure. Helped create mayhem in Libya and Syria. Continued and expanded PRISM. Surrounded himself with ex- and soon-to-be- Wall Street bankers which he bailed instead of jailed.
Perhaps Trump will reach greater heights of disaster. That bar is pretty high, imo.
I estimate roughly 99.99999+% of people on the planet deserve the Nobel Peace Prize more than Obama.
Last edited by Tom O'Donnell; Monday, 12th December, 2016, 10:54 AM.
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
Sure. Helped create mayhem in Libya and Syria. Continued and expanded PRISM. Surrounded himself with ex- and soon-to-be- Wall Street bankers which he bailed instead of jailed.
Perhaps Trump will reach greater heights of disaster. That bar is pretty high, imo.
I estimate roughly 99.99999+% of people on the planet deserve the Nobel Peace Prize more than Obama.
I fairness, mayhem had already arrived in Libya and Syria before he did anything.
People in charge see the dangers out there and see things like PRISM as something that might help the country. Whether they are getting accurate info from their intelligence people is another story. I guess the other option is to just let it happen and see what happens.
He should have jailed the bankers, but he cannot do it alone. Other parts of government have the say here.
He got the US out of Iraq. He would have taken them out of Afghanistan if the potential fall out had not been so bad.
He does not get credit for not putting troops into Syria like others would have, or being part of the economy rebounding.
He also would have closed Gitmo if the congress would have gone along, but they seem to like the idea of keeping people in jail forever without a trial.
I think Obama was better than most. Better than Bush, for sure.
I think Obama was better than most. Better than Bush, for sure.
Besides the medical insurance for which Obama worked hard, all he had on other presidents such as Bush is better PR. The fact that he won a Nobel prize before doing anything is just proof of that.
In terms of foreign policy, he was as bad as Bush. The drones killing, the raid on Bin Laden's compound, the widespread surveillance etc. Imagine if that happens under Bush. Pretty sure the media would be complaining much harder.
I fairness, mayhem had already arrived in Libya and Syria before he did anything.
Syria maybe but Libya was stable. Libya was Hillary's contribution to world chaos as Barrack Obama had been against doing anything there but was persuaded by Hillary that it was a good idea.
People in charge see the dangers out there and see things like PRISM as something that might help the country. Whether they are getting accurate info from their intelligence people is another story. I guess the other option is to just let it happen and see what happens.
He should have jailed the bankers, but he cannot do it alone.
He would have had to jail the Democrats in Congress and the Senate who prevented reigning in their friends on wall street.
NBC ever intent on fake news and editing the record edited the brilliant Saturday night live skit which was too close for the comfort of Soros and the Democrats to make it less damaging to Hillary and her gang.
He got the US out of Iraq. He would have taken them out of Afghanistan if the potential fall out had not been so bad.
He does not get credit for not putting troops into Syria like others would have, or being part of the economy rebounding.
He also would have closed Gitmo if the congress would have gone along, but they seem to like the idea of keeping people in jail forever without a trial.
Well he did get to exchange five hardened terrorists for one American deserter by keeping it open.
I think Obama was better than most. Better than Bush, for sure.
That is quite debatable though Bush did get the Iraq war wrong. He should have dealt with Afghanistan before considering other adventures.
Obama will go down in history as one of the worst presidents in modern times. The question will be whether Carter or Obama was the worst president of the modern era. He is largely responsible for the election of Trump.
Last edited by Vlad Drkulec; Monday, 12th December, 2016, 03:07 PM.
Syria maybe but Libya was stable. Libya was Hillary's contribution to world chaos as Barrack Obama had been against doing anything there but was persuaded by Hillary that it was a good idea.
He would have had to jail the Democrats in Congress and the Senate who prevented reigning in their friends on wall street.
NBC ever intent on fake news and editing the record edited the brilliant Saturday night live skit which was too close for the comfort of Soros and the Democrats to make it less damaging to Hillary and her gang.
Well he did get to exchange five hardened terrorists for one American deserter by keeping it open.
That is quite debatable though Bush did get the Iraq war wrong. He should have dealt with Afghanistan before considering other adventures.
Obama will go down in history as one of the worst presidents in modern times. The question will be whether Carter or Obama was the worst president of the modern era. He is largely responsible for the election of Trump.
A few things:
Libya had already started a civil war before the US, the UK and France went in. We will not really know if it would have worked out better or worse if they had stayed out. If we look at Syria as an example, it could have also gone very wrong.
To only say the Dems did not reign in the bankers is not factually correct. There has never been a Repub that wanted to reign in any business. Even now, there are no checks on the bankers as the Repubs won't fund the department that is supposed to do it.
Any link to Michelle Malkin is not worth looking at. Anyone whose job depends on them yelling the loudest at how bad the other side is should not be listened to.
If you are going to say NBC edits the record has never seen FOX news splicing in a speaker at a rally in Washington with a bigger crowd at the same place on a different day. Too bad the weather was different and they got caught and had to apologize on air. Fox invented edited news.
Gitmo should still be closed no matter what happens.
I agree with Bush not finishing what he started. The world would be a lot different place if that had never happened. Seriously. Think about what Iraq caused. Debt in the trillions, so many killed, so many injured, ISIS, etc. To list Carter and Obama and not Bush is ridiculous. How about Ford? Nixon? Stop being so far right. It is ok to say the other guy was not so bad. He did not deserve the prize, but he did not ask for it either. He gave away the money and in his speech talked about the need for American military power. Ya, what a loser.
Trivia: Which president passed more legislation than any other? Carter. Just because he was not interested in starting wars and killing people does not mean he was a bad president.
Clinton and stupid Americans are the reason for Trump. Obama has a good favourability rating. Rich people wanting to be uber rich caused Trump. No government official ever forced a business overseas. Business owners want more money. I don't blame them, but if you do not care about your workers or country, Trump is what you get. Even Trump likes parts of the ACA. Ya, Obama is a horrible president. Bush is also a reason for Trump. I am sure there will be an uptick in the economy under Trump. The problems will be years from now when the protections to the environment and workers all come home to roost. Best quote: "If Clinton is president, her cabinet will be all people from Goldman Sachs." or "Goldman Sachs robbed our working class". Then he puts them in HIS cabinet!! Stupid Americans. But I guess not just Americans can be stupid.
I have no doubt that in a few years you will be crediting Trump for driving ISIS underground, even though that work started long ago, without real American casualties. haha
Besides the medical insurance for which Obama worked hard, all he had on other presidents such as Bush is better PR. The fact that he won a Nobel prize before doing anything is just proof of that.
In terms of foreign policy, he was as bad as Bush. The drones killing, the raid on Bin Laden's compound, the widespread surveillance etc. Imagine if that happens under Bush. Pretty sure the media would be complaining much harder.
Bush started the surveillance and he is critisized for it, just like Obama. Bin Laden should have been killed no matter where he was. The only problem with drones is that innocent people die. If that could be avoided, it would be an excellent tool. So, Bush and Obama are considered the same on those topics. The problem is that Bush started a horrible war and Obama has tried not to, or to not directly engage American troops into ground combat. That is why Obama is seen as different.
I want to talk about the surveillance state, as Vlad and Mathieu pretty much covered everything else I wanted to say in response.
If I were a more paranoid person I would wonder why Western governments insist on inviting folks from countries we are at war with to live here then decide we all have to be spied upon to prevent domestic terrorist attacks for our communal safety. If I were the shepherd I wouldn't invite the wolves to live with the sheep. Unless I wanted the sheep to live in perpetual fear and use that to give me more power to control their lives, that is.
In conclusion I don't only blame Obama. He got dealt a bad hand by Bush, who I believe was pretty awful. Sure, Obama is probably better and will get rated higher by historians. That's not exactly high praise.
Last edited by Tom O'Donnell; Monday, 12th December, 2016, 05:29 PM.
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
A few things:
Libya had already started a civil war before the US, the UK and France went in. We will not really know if it would have worked out better or worse if they had stayed out. If we look at Syria as an example, it could have also gone very wrong.
To only say the Dems did not reign in the bankers is not factually correct. There has never been a Repub that wanted to reign in any business. Even now, there are no checks on the bankers as the Repubs won't fund the department that is supposed to do it.
The housing bubble caused the economic crisis. The housing bubble was a creation of the Democrats and complicit Republicans. Bush tried to reform it but was blocked by the Democrats. Why not? They could always blame Bush when the inevitable occurred.
I have no doubt that in a few years you will be crediting Trump for driving ISIS underground, even though that work started long ago, without real American casualties. haha
It seems to me that there have been plenty of American casualties in recent years. San Bernardino, Miami, Boston, Ohio and so on. The U.S. has to get control of their border and then they have to focus on extermination of ISIS and turn some of those cyber assets they keep touting loose on the ISIS online recruiting efforts. If a few more people heckled them when they emerge online then maybe people wouldn't buy into their silliness. Simply reporting on what happens to the recruits when they arrive would be enough to greatly stem the flow.
"I have no doubt that in a few years you will be crediting Trump for driving ISIS underground, even though that work started long ago, without real American casualties. haha"
The timing of this statement is funny. At lunch today, I was discussing the election with a like-minded friend and told him that, "The Obama administration spent 8 years blaming Bush for anything that went wrong and would spend the next 8 years (sorry, Bob!) taking credit for whatever goes right for Trump!!
Bin Laden should have been killed no matter where he was.
Bin Laden wasn't really at war with the US anymore. He was just sitting in his compound, combing his beard while watching videos of himself. And even if he was still planning stuff, the right thing to do was to extract him, interrogate him and have him stand trial. Then let the tribunal decide what happens to him. That's what we do in civilized countries.
By assassinating him (yes, it was an assassination), the US actually gave him full victory by lowering themselves to his own, barbarian level.
That is quite debatable though Bush did get the Iraq war wrong. He should have dealt with Afghanistan before considering other adventures.
Obama will go down in history as one of the worst presidents in modern times. The question will be whether Carter or Obama was the worst president of the modern era. He is largely responsible for the election of Trump.
Oh come on now, Bush was one of the worst presidents in history. He started an expensive, immoral, unnecessary war with Iraq that was one of the dumbest decisions in world history. He presided over the sub prime mortgage fiasco and related activities that led directly to the market crash of 2008/2009. The large expanded US federal deficit is directly linked to these projects. And he temporarily destroyed the image of the US as a reasonable, ethical partner in world affairs.
Obama got handed that mess. Nobody could have done much better given that hand the first term. There was no Depression, a result that many thought was inevitable ( it wasn't but that illustrates the depths of the issues in 2008/2009 in the US ). Obama will go down in history as a middling President, a guy who could have been so much better but very few US Presidents are much more then that. Bush destroyed so much. Better to be an underachiever that respects others then a destructive force on the planet.
But you know what, it is ordinary Americans that have to live with the consequences of their decisions, not you. They had it really good 20 years ago and blew their huge advantage. Time to rebuild but I doubt Trump's ideas are the right building blocks. It's still a great country for rich people, if you don't get shot or car jacked.
Last edited by Duncan Smith; Monday, 12th December, 2016, 09:04 PM.
Bin Laden wasn't really at war with the US anymore. He was just sitting in his compound, combing his beard while watching videos of himself. And even if he was still planning stuff, the right thing to do was to extract him, interrogate him and have him stand trial. Then let the tribunal decide what happens to him. That's what we do in civilized countries.
By assassinating him (yes, it was an assassination), the US actually gave him full victory by lowering themselves to his own, barbarian level.
When faced with a rabid dog, you don't try to reason with it or psychoanalyze it. You kill it. If Osama bin ladin was in a surrendering mood I am sure there would have been an impressive show trial followed by an execution. There is no use in expending young lives to try to capture someone who is shooting at you. He had enough American victims.
I predict some tough times ahead for Pakistan under Trump at least in terms of foreign aid and support which continued under Obama despite the betrayal of sheltering Bin Ladin.
If Osama bin ladin was in a surrendering mood I am sure there would have been an impressive show trial followed by an execution. There is no use in expending young lives to try to capture someone who is shooting at you. He had enough American victims.
Bin Laden wasn't shooting at anyone when they killed him. And speaking of saving lives... Has it crossed your mind that he had critical information on an important terrorist organization? In that context, information can save lives...
Raiding his compound and killing a mostly defenseless Bin Laden was a huge mistake. He was a barbarian, I know. He deserved punishement, I agree. But it doesn't mean the US had to lower themselves to his level for that.
Historically, the US military could always pretend on having the high ground in terms of morals. This is no longer the case and the Bin Laden killing was just an example. I never thought Obama would let something like that pass, but apparently he did.
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