Trump - The NEW, New Thread

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

Hi Tom,

I think you are wasting your time arguing with someone who is closed-minded, relies constantly on the micro-aggression technique, and cannot tell the truth even half the time. All of this is proven in his own posts. I am grateful that others such as you stand up to his lies, but it is almost like he is a hate machine complete with feed-back loop, feeding off the energy from attempts to challenge his hatred. I don't think it is good to feed him.

I originally thought it was critical to endlessly stand up to his lies, but there seems to be a factor in favour of not doing so. No one on chesstalk but the already left-leaning listen to him with any intent to agree with or learn anything. He has no influence and no power, no real audience to believe his lies. He will name-call me and you and many others without thought or remorse instead of coming up with facts (excepting his one study on theism - which in itself is a lie).

So good for you for remaining open-minded, but in my opinion that should be reserved for people who deserve your attention.

This is excellent advice. I think I will take it. Thanks!

[Mavros Whissell]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

I consider this a distinction without a difference, but am open-minded enough to be informed.

Hi Tom,

I think you are wasting your time arguing with someone who is closed-minded, relies constantly on the micro-aggression technique, and cannot tell the truth even half the time. All of this is proven in his own posts. I am grateful that others such as you stand up to his lies, but it is almost like he is a hate machine complete with feed-back loop, feeding off the energy from attempts to challenge his hatred. I don't think it is good to feed him.

I originally thought it was critical to endlessly stand up to his lies, but there seems to be a factor in favour of not doing so. No one on chesstalk but the already left-leaning listen to him with any intent to agree with or learn anything. He has no influence and no power, no real audience to believe his lies. He will name-call me and you and many others without thought or remorse instead of coming up with facts (excepting his one study on theism - which in itself is a lie).

So good for you for remaining open-minded, but in my opinion that should be reserved for people who deserve your attention.

[Ben Daswani]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

I would allow anyone [edit: anyone in the country legally] to hold a rally so long as they didn't advocate for criminal acts.

Genocide might be a criminal act. I'm not sure. I'm no expert.

BLM and the KKK have this in common: they both see things through a lens of race and feel oppressed. Yes, some White people evidently feel oppressed.

Yes, but people who think that black communities are systemically oppressed are correct, and people who think that white communities are systemically oppressed are fucking white supremacist idiots. So... what exactly is your point?

Believing Obama is a Kenyan-born Muslim is not racist.

You're willfully ignorant if you actually believe something so stupid.

I consider this a distinction without a difference, but am open-minded enough to be informed.

What are you even saying here? You consider white supremacy and "political positions based on the interests and perspectives of social groups with which people identify" the same thing? A distinction without a difference?

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

Bannon just became one hundred times more powerful though it won't be to help the left against Trump. He was back chairing a meeting at his old Breitbart News gig. He will not be as constrained in his criticism of those dragging their feet on the Trump agenda.

One thing I don't understand is why Bannon of the US is friends with our Butts, who advised the Ontario Liberals (and more recently PM Trudeau) regarding their disasterous Green Energy policy.

[edit: perhaps something to do with Bannon's previous interest in pollution:]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Bannon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Butts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Energy_Act_2009

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

...

Would you let ISIS hold a rally in Charlottesville? Why the KKK then? They're both terrorist organizations.

I would allow anyone [edit: anyone in the country legally] to hold a rally so long as they didn't advocate for criminal acts. That includes both the KKK and ISIS sympathizers. If ISIS sympathizers were to say, for example, that the US doesn't belong in Syria, and that the US government's actions constitute war crimes, then that's an opinion and that's what free speech is all about.

And who cares if both sides were violent? Both sides were violent in WWII, too.

Fortunately for the far-Left in particular this isn't war. It's not even close.

So, you're blaming BLM, a group that advocates for equal rights for black people, for white people being racist against black people? Not a good look.


Furthermore, you seem to be under the impression that any of these white supremacists are recruited. They've always been white supremacists. They've just been covert about it. Them being overt about it is actually worse for their cause.

I am saying that when groups try to muzzle other groups it makes the muzzlers look weak. If you have an argument, then make it. If I don't like someone's opinion I don't show up at their house and toss rocks at them. BLM and the KKK have this in common: they both see things through a lens of race and feel oppressed. Yes, some White people evidently feel oppressed.

No, white supremacists are not a fringe element. They are the popular base of the man in the world's most powerful position. Most Trump voters think Obama is a Kenyan-born Muslim. These people are white supremacists. White supremacy is not rare or limited. It is widespread and pervasive.

Believing Obama is a Kenyan-born Muslim is not racist. It is people being wrong. People are wrong all the time. You could probably find 100K people in the US who believe Elvis Presley is still alive.

I don't know to whom you're referring here. Are you saying that I'm doing that or that BLM/Antifa are doing that?

Antifa and the media. Antifa has a strategy of showing up and trying to incite violence, and the media laps it up because violent conflict gets eyeballs.


Oh I forgot one thing. From the Wikipedia link you gave:

"Identity politics, also called identitarian politics,[2] refers to political positions based on the interests and perspectives of social groups with which people identify. Identity politics includes the ways in which people's politics may be shaped by aspects of their identity through loosely correlated social organizations. Examples include social organizations based on age, religion, social class or caste, culture, dialect, disability, education, ethnicity, language, nationality, sex, gender identity, generation, occupation, profession, race, political party affiliation, sexual orientation, settlement, urban and rural habitation, and veteran status. Not all members of any given group are involved in identity politics. Identity politics are used by minority and civil rights organizations to form a coalition with members of the majority."

I consider this a distinction without a difference, but am open-minded enough to be informed.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

Right and Alt-Right media are under massive attacks.

The events in Charlottesville provided another opportunity for this. The Rebel got hit hard. Faith Goldy made an incredibly clumsy move by hopping onto a Neo-Nazi broadcast. She wanted to talk about the real storey of how things went down in Charlottesville, but joining groups that are simply evil is not the way to do it.

Hannity has been targeted and has resisted so far. Tucker Carlson has proved tougher to attack thus far. O'Reilly ran his mouth enough that all that was needed were allegations to force him into settlements, and it was easy to peg him off.

O'Reilly was a Neanderthal who harassed women and made cringe worthy statements on air towards women at times. He was brought down by these actions. Fox seems to be moving to the middle. There are rumors of a Fox like news channel with Bannon at the helm.

The right is under huge pressure from the lies of mainstream media and every mistake large and small is brought to the fore. There is no room for error. So almost no one will make it through!

Certainly it would be a good idea to refrain from impropriety.

Bannon will have the fight of his life waiting for him at Brietbart, where openly conservative Milos was already knocked off for making pedophile-like remarks about one of his relationships.

I don't think they were pedophile like, they were pedophile remarks.

Every Christian knows this world is the devil's - so it should not be shocking even if it is sad. The loudest and most dominant voice is not going to be a good one to us.

I believe very much we should resist all attempts to be verbally censored, but avoid violence at all costs.

It was the Devil's world up until 2017 years ago (plus or minus four years). He's just making as much mischief as possible before mop up operations begin.

[Ben Daswani]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

Antifa, BLM and White Supremacists are all Identitarians.

From Wikipedia: "The Identitarian movement is a white nationalist movement that advocates the preservation of national identity and a return to 'traditional western values'."

Yeah, that sounds like the BLM manifesto to a tee.

Also from Wikipedia: "Not to be confused with identity politics."

Sounds like you did, though.

When White Supremacists whine about how the government/the media/whomever are out to get them, then the cops show up to break up their lawful assembly followed by completely skewed (imo) reports of how only one side was violent, their paranoia becomes justified.

Would you let ISIS hold a rally in Charlottesville? Why the KKK then? They're both terrorist organizations.

And who cares if both sides were violent? Both sides were violent in WWII, too.

Antifa and BLM help recruit ... White Supremacists.

So, you're blaming BLM, a group that advocates for equal rights for black people, for white people being racist against black people? Not a good look.

Furthermore, you seem to be under the impression that any of these white supremacists are recruited. They've always been white supremacists. They've just been covert about it. Them being overt about it is actually worse for their cause.

White Supremacists are a fringe element. They grow in stature when groups like BLM and Antifa make them newsworthy.

No, white supremacists are not a fringe element. They are the popular base of the man in the world's most powerful position. Most Trump voters think Obama is a Kenyan-born Muslim. These people are white supremacists. White supremacy is not rare or limited. It is widespread and pervasive.

When radicals start accusing everyone of being a -ist based on their background coupled with every micro-aggression both real and imaginary, it creates a bunch of people who think "F##k it, they already think I'm X, so I may as well be X", then act accordingly.

I agree. That's why I don't accuse fragile white men of being racist based on micro-aggressions. I accuse them of being racist, like Whissell, when they say that all non-whites in Canada are "immigrants." That's not a micro-aggression. That's just a conservative white dude being a racist. I've seen it all my life.

This strategy is so poor that I think even if Trump proves to be a complete fiasco, he could still win a second term. Calling people idiots and trying to muzzle them because they disagree is a great way to mobilize them into obstructing.

I don't know to whom you're referring here. Are you saying that I'm doing that or that BLM/Antifa are doing that?

[Mavros Whissell]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

Right and Alt-Right media are under massive attacks.

The events in Charlottesville provided another opportunity for this. The Rebel got hit hard. Faith Goldy made an incredibly clumsy move by hopping onto a Neo-Nazi broadcast. She wanted to talk about the real storey of how things went down in Charlottesville, but joining groups that are simply evil is not the way to do it.

Hannity has been targeted and has resisted so far. Tucker Carlson has proved tougher to attack thus far. O'Reilly ran his mouth enough that all that was needed were allegations to force him into settlements, and it was easy to peg him off.

The right is under huge pressure from the lies of mainstream media and every mistake large and small is brought to the fore. There is no room for error. So almost no one will make it through!

Bannon will have the fight of his life waiting for him at Brietbart, where openly conservative Milos was already knocked off for making pedophile-like remarks about one of his relationships.

Every Christian knows this world is the devil's - so it should not be shocking even if it is sad. The loudest and most dominant voice is not going to be a good one to us.

I believe very much we should resist all attempts to be verbally censored, but avoid violence at all costs.

[Mavros Whissell]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

Great points, Tom.
It really comes down to the method of thinking.

Mavros

[Lucas Davies]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

https://twitter.com/Breznican/status/898586524874186753

Damn, this stuff sounds pretty familiar. Really makes you think, doesn't it?

Full interview: http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc-news/watc...-1026775107752

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

http://www.breitbart.com/

Steve K. Bannon returns home to Breitbart Populist hero.

"Former White House Chief Strategist Stephen K. Bannon returned as Executive Chairman of Breitbart News Friday afternoon and chaired the company’s evening editorial meeting."

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

Back to the news of today... Bannon is out. Will he (plus Breitbart) be one sore loser too many for Trump to handle?

Bannon just became one hundred times more powerful though it won't be to help the left against Trump. He was back chairing a meeting at his old Breitbart News gig. He will not be as constrained in his criticism of those dragging their feet on the Trump agenda.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

Back to the news of today... Bannon is out. Will he (plus Breitbart) be one sore loser too many for Trump to handle?

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

Do you think both sides are doing that now? I don't think so. Antifa and BLM are not trying to recruit hardcore Trump supporters. They're trying to recruit moderates. You might argue that they are demonizing the other side, certainly not that they are viewing the other side as "potential recruits who are made of the right timbre." I'm not sure how that quotation is at all relevant to what's going on now.

Antifa, BLM and White Supremacists are all Identitarians.

When White Supremacists whine about how the government/the media/whomever are out to get them, then the cops show up to break up their lawful assembly followed by completely skewed (imo) reports of how only one side was violent, their paranoia becomes justified. The best approach is to let them spew, then rebut their points with reason and logic, not engage in violent clashes. Antifa and BLM help recruit ... White Supremacists. Don't believe me? Allow White Supremacists to tell you themselves:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWr2NUvbcVI (question then answer starts at 16:55 of the video). Note: the is 2016 and references riots prior to the one in Charlottesville.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2goCMKjwuE (question then answer starts at 8:25) "... the one group that is not failing us is our enemies ..."

White Supremacists are a fringe element. They grow in stature when groups like BLM and Antifa make them newsworthy.


When radicals start accusing everyone of being a -ist based on their background coupled with every micro-aggression both real and imaginary, it creates a bunch of people who think "F##k it, they already think I'm X, so I may as well be X", then act accordingly.

This strategy is so poor that I think even if Trump proves to be a complete fiasco, he could still win a second term. Calling people idiots and trying to muzzle them because they disagree is a great way to mobilize them into obstructing.

[Ben Daswani]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

"... It is true, of course, that in Germany before 1933, and in Italy before 1922, communists and Nazis or Fascists clashed more frequently with each other than with other parties. They competed for the support of the same type of mind and reserved for each other the hatred of the heretic. But their practice showed how closely they are related. To both, the real enemy, the man with whom they had nothing in common and whom they could not hope to convince, is the liberal of the old type. While to the Nazi the communist, and to the communist the Nazi, and to both the socialist, are potential recruits who are made of the right timbre, although they have listened to false prophets, they both know there can be no compromise between them and those who really believe in individual freedom. ..." Friedrich Hayek, The Road to Serfdom

Do you think both sides are doing that now? I don't think so. Antifa and BLM are not trying to recruit hardcore Trump supporters. They're trying to recruit moderates. You might argue that they are demonizing the other side, certainly not that they are viewing the other side as "potential recruits who are made of the right timbre." I'm not sure how that quotation is at all relevant to what's going on now.