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It is of course true that attempts were made to impose atheism and eradicate theism in many places. But if you talk about Mao Zedong or Joseph Stalin, the primary and initial motivations which eventually lead to power were Marxism, a social/economic/political philosophy. It was believed by these Marxists that the best way to hold onto power and continue with their program was to eliminate theism.
Lets be real here. Atheism was a central tenet of most of the most murderous regimes of the twentieth century and still is for many of them. Anyone who does not recognize the importance of atheism as a central tenet of communism simply does not understand communism. Millions died either directly or through policies which inevitably led to starvation and most of these were theists. Where atheism is the state religion, death on a mass scale is an inevitable side effect.
Last edited by Vlad Drkulec; Friday, 16th June, 2017, 10:32 AM.
I wonder if someone said that same sentence but with "Christians" in place of "Muslims," how quickly Drkulec would jump on them for being anti-Christian?
I do not know what Vought's belief system is, but if he is a born again Christian he no doubt believes based on scripture that most so called Christians are also condemned. You seem to be whining a lot about the theoretical outcome in an afterlife that you do not even believe in.
...
As far as Vought is concerned citing a religious belief that those that do not accept Christ are condemned in the after life does not necessarily mean that he is Islamaphobic. I certainly would not consider him Judeophobic even though I am sure he holds the same belief for the Jewish faith.
The key word above, imo, is "necessarily." I think Bernie Sanders, or anyone on the committee for that matter, had an obligation to dig into Vought's comments. To accuse Sanders of bigotry or of contravening the constitution as a result of reasonable due diligence is nonsense.
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
You are being unfair. I did not suggest that the racism directed against Jews was justified. Of course it is not, racism is never justified. I suggested that it was a natural historical result of a religion which professes a biased, or racist God who has a chosen people. It is not surprising to me that a race of people, whoever they are, would be subject to terrible racism if they claim to be God's chosen people. That is it, that is all I said.
You're blaming the victims for twenty+ centuries of abuse suffered at the hands of others. Wrong.
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
1) Article VI of the US Constitution states: "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.", and the general consensus is that Sander's reason for not being in favor of Vought's nomination is his religious beliefs.
What if someone had the religious belief that one race was superior to another? Would challenging that belief be considered a "religious test"? Would opposing the nomination of such a person because of one's belief in a racial hierarchy mean that the "reason for not being in favor of [one's] nomination is [one's] religious beliefs"?
everytime it hurts, it hurts just like the first (and then you cry till there's no more tears)
The cause and effect that you believe results in antisemitism is misplaced. You may want to educate yourself on this before coming to conclusions about the causes of antisemitism.
A Semite is a person from a certain part of the world. The Palestinians qualify. I am speaking of anti-Jewish sentiments, which I have always found to be very distasteful.
It is of course possible that I am wrong, and the fact that many non-Jews historically have perceived Jews to believe in a biased God, whether they promote it or not, has nothing to do with the racism these non-Jews have so often directed against Jews.
I am pleased we are able to exchange opinions on a delicate subject in a civil manner.
The key word above, imo, is "necessarily." I think Bernie Sanders, or anyone on the committee for that matter, had an obligation to dig into Vought's comments. To accuse Sanders of bigotry or of contravening the constitution as a result of reasonable due diligence is nonsense.
Your pronouncement on Sanders bigotry is frankly nonsense.
What if someone had the religious belief that one race was superior to another? Would challenging that belief be considered a "religious test"? Would opposing the nomination of such a person because of one's belief in a racial hierarchy mean that the "reason for not being in favor of [one's] nomination is [one's] religious beliefs"?
What if somewhat had a belief that atheists are superior to theists in intelligence with the evidence based on questionable research? Clearly that person should not be allowed to take a job which is funded by taxpayers either directly or through allowing tax deductions to donors.
Lets be real here. Atheism was a central tenet of most of the most murderous regimes of the twentieth century and still is for many of them. Anyone who does not recognize the importance of atheism as a central tenet of communism simply does not understand communism. Millions died either directly or through policies which inevitably led to starvation and most of these were theists. Where atheism is the state religion, death on a mass scale is an inevitable side effect.
I disagree with nothing you say here. But this does not change the fact that these "murderous regimes" came to power not by rounding up atheists with the intent of attacking theists, but by rounding up proletarians with the intent of attacking the ruling classes.
Your pronouncement on Sanders bigotry is frankly nonsense.
Vlad, you are the one who claimed that Sanders is an "anti-Christian bigot". Howsabout you actually support that statement rather than the opinions of those who don't see the bigotry as "nonsense"? The Vought hearing doesn't show that.
Steve
P.S. Your definition of "atheist" is simplistic and vague.
Note: despite what Drkulec might have you think, I don't think all atheists are smarter than all theists. I do, however, think that atheists, on average, score better on IQ tests than theists. This, of course, is because they do.
P.S. Stay mad, Drkulec!
Last edited by Ben Daswani; Friday, 16th June, 2017, 01:55 PM.
everytime it hurts, it hurts just like the first (and then you cry till there's no more tears)
I disagree with nothing you say here. But this does not change the fact that these "murderous regimes" came to power not by rounding up atheists with the intent of attacking theists, but by rounding up proletarians with the intent of attacking the ruling classes.
You simply have no understanding of what actually happened in any of these communist revolutions. In most cases they killed the intellectuals and teachers and not the ruling classes.
A Semite is a person from a certain part of the world. The Palestinians qualify.I am speaking of anti-Jewish sentiments
Yes, I even heard Bobby Fischer in an interview once come up with this incorrect use of the word antisemitism.
The root word Semite gives the false impression that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic people, e.g., including Arabs. The compound word antisemite was popularized in Germany in 1879 as a scientific-sounding term for Judenhass "Jew-hatred", and that has been its common use since then.
Originally posted by Brad Thomson
It is of course possible that I am wrong, and the fact that many non-Jews historically have perceived Jews to believe in a biased God, whether they promote it or not, has nothing to do with the racism these non-Jews have so often directed against Jews.
Yes you are wrong about this as you were about what the word antisemitism refers to. Please educate yourself more about all of this before making such statements.
Last edited by Sid Belzberg; Friday, 16th June, 2017, 02:38 PM.
I was writing a long winded reply explaining my religious background, the description of Jesus in the Quran, how Vought's post was done while a professor at Weaton College, an Evangelical Christian Church in response specifically to a professor stating that Muslims and Christian worship the same god (which cannot be true because Muslims do not believe Jesus was the living embodiment of God which Christianity claims), that Christianity does not distinguish between those who never heard of Jesus vs those that deny him as god when it comes to salvation, etc, when google crashed. Probably for the best. Maybe it was divine intervention :p
So for now I shall just point out the following:
1) Article VI of the US Constitution states: "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.", and the general consensus is that Sander's reason for not being in favor of Vought's nomination is his religious beliefs.
The ADL article to which you linked does not unequivocally condemn Sanders, e.g.:
Some, including Arab American Institute co-founder and Maronite Catholic James Zogby, supported Sanders' stance against Vought."I cannot agree with Sanders' critics. He is right. Vought is not what America is 'supposed to be about' and he is not fit to serve as Deputy Director of OMB,"*wrote Zogby. "Senator Sanders is right. At issue is not Vought's*Christian faith*or his theology. It is his intolerance for the faiths of others, including a fellow Christian whose termination he supported because he did not agree with her theology."
Zogby's pov is similar to mine. The issue is not Vought's faith. The issue is, can Vought apply himself impartially to the challenges of public office given the manner in which he interprets and applies his faith?
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
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