Trump - The NEW, New Thread

[Mavros Whissell]

Re: Refutation to issues around UU1 and Clintons in Snopes and Politifact

Bonham is a crazy person. The notion that a Christian would want to facilitate an attack on Israel to accelerate the end times is insane as that would clearly put the Christian in the camp of the enemies of Israel who are slated for destruction. No true Christian can be against Israel. There is a large part of the Democratic party which hates Israel. I have not seen a similar current in the Republican Party. Humans cannot accelerate the end times as the date and time is preordained.

I believe what Vlad states here is correct.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Refutation to issues around UU1 and Clintons in Snopes and Politifact

...The notion that a Christian would want to facilitate an attack on Israel to accelerate the end times is insane as that would clearly put the Christian in the camp of the enemies of Israel who are slated for destruction.....

"Facilitate" is your word, not mine. You obviously and predictably misunderstood. No one is "facilitating" anything.

The attack on Israel has to come from the right alliance of nations (Russia, China, Persia / Iran). Any news that indicates that events are unfolding in order to fulfill this prophecy is cheered with Hallelujah's by many TV pastors of various churches. One that comes to mind, but I have seen others: Jack Van Impe. He does a whole section where he outlines current events and how they fit in with the end time, and he literally rubs his hands with glee as he describes how close we are getting. There is another one (name I can't recall) whose entire show is about end time prophecy, and he publishes many books on that topic.

And the thing you don't realize is that because this battle is foretold and therefore for Christian believers is absolutely certain to happen, it is ok for these believers to wish for the timetable to unfold ASAP. They aren't the enemies of Israel for wanting that. If there was any uncertainty as to whether the end times had to have such a battle, that would be a different matter.

There is no "acceleration" of the end time involved. It is simply a psychological wish that the end time battle begin ASAP.

You don't seem to understand the predominant evangelical viewpoint of the end times. This is something that is to bring about Gods final judgment on those who think themselves above judgment. Therefore it is to be praised and desired above any effort of man to avoid it, such as peace treaties. It marks the end of man's rule over Earth and the beginning of God's rule over Earth (although much else has to happen besides just this final battle).

I am not a part of this belief system (although it does remarkably gel with current events, if you ignore that the Biblical prophecies do not mention the U.S. at all). But I do at least understand it and its psychology. For those who believe in it, it is quite natural to want it to happen ASAP.

In that context, Russia shipping uranium to Iran is something that gets many -- I would think most -- evangelical Christians saying "Praise the Lord!" and many TV pastors are reflecting this.

[Lucas Davies]

Re: Refutation to issues around UU1 and Clintons in Snopes and Politifact

Everyone knows that Democrat lawmakers are convicted of crimes twice as often as Republicans over the course of history. Democrats and Independents are also more likely to commit crimes. The claim is that this is because Democrats tend to be poorer but this is not true as on average Democrats tend to be richer than Republicans. I guess the California and New York elites skew the results.

Do you have a source for these claims?

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Refutation to issues around UU1 and Clintons in Snopes and Politifact

Do you have a source for these claims?

Looking at the House Ethics Committee historical list, you'll find that there were 68 Democrats and 34 Republicans, from 1856 through 2004 who were caught up in questionable activity. (Note, the list starts keeping tabs of Democrats versus Republicans in the mid 1850s, once the Republican party was formed. Click here to see beginning of the tally). So, from the House Ethics Committee historical list, the Democrats maintained a healthy two-to-one lead.

https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-d...-or-vice-versa

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

I know that this is probably in vain, ie useless, without use. I do not typically do things which are without use aside from posting on chesstalk. TV preachers for the most part are entertainment and there to raise money. I do not typically give them much attention because they tend to make significant errors when they teach their interpretations of biblical prophecy. Two preachers that I occasionally watch (on the order of once every month or two) are Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen. Their messages tend to be uplifting and I don't sense that they are all about the money. I enjoy reading their books.

Van Impe may or may not be sincere but I have seen him make some fundamental errors. He lost a lot of credibility with me at the time of the Y2K issue. He made certain apocalyptic predictions which were just silly. He preaches end times as a fundraising tactic not unlike the Armstrong doomsday cult which Bobby Fischer fell into. If the world is coming to an end why try to hang on to your money or defend your world title. Its a lot of work. If Bobby had not been convinced the world was coming to an end he might have defended his title and chess history might have turned out a bit differently.

I do not know if the end of the world will come today or ten thousand years from now or ten million years from now. Only God knows. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something and their pronouncements should be taken with a grain of salt. That said I don't see all the pieces on the board yet. If anything the election of Donald Trump has delayed things as far as all the pieces landing on the board to fulfill all prophecy which does have to happen in order for the apocalypse to begin. If Hillary had won it was quite possible that the pieces would already be on the board. She was that evil.

As for people like Ben Daswani and Paul Bonham you should stop being minions of Satan. There is no future in it. Best case is that you spend eternity alone in the darkness forever or you are extinguished out of existence. Worst case is that you are tormented forever. Your alternative theology will not be taken into account in deciding your sentence.

Wishing harm to Israel is the same as facilitating harm to Israel. Thoughts become things.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

I know that this is probably in vain, ie useless, without use. I do not typically do things which are without use aside from posting on chesstalk. TV preachers for the most part are entertainment and there to raise money. I do not typically give them much attention because they tend to make significant errors when they teach their interpretations of biblical prophecy. Two preachers that I occasionally watch (on the order of once every month or two) are Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen. Their messages tend to be uplifting and I don't sense that they are all about the money. I enjoy reading their books.

Van Impe may or may not be sincere but I have seen him make some fundamental errors. He lost a lot of credibility with me at the time of the Y2K issue. He made certain apocalyptic predictions which were just silly. He preaches end times as a fundraising tactic not unlike the Armstrong doomsday cult which Bobby Fischer fell into. If the world is coming to an end why try to hang on to your money or defend your world title. Its a lot of work. If Bobby had not been convinced the world was coming to an end he might have defended his title and chess history might have turned out a bit differently.

I do not know if the end of the world will come today or ten thousand years from now or ten million years from now. Only God knows. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something and their pronouncements should be taken with a grain of salt. That said I don't see all the pieces on the board yet. If anything the election of Donald Trump has delayed things as far as all the pieces landing on the board to fulfill all prophecy which does have to happen in order for the apocalypse to begin. If Hillary had won it was quite possible that the pieces would already be on the board. She was that evil.

As for people like Ben Daswani and Paul Bonham you should stop being minions of Satan. There is no future in it. Best case is that you spend eternity alone in the darkness forever or you are extinguished out of existence. Worst case is that you are tormented forever. Your alternative theology will not be taken into account in deciding your sentence.

Wishing harm to Israel is the same as facilitating harm to Israel. Thoughts become things.

Again, no one is "wishing" nor "facilitating" harm to Israel. It is written in the Bible that Israel will be attacked in the end time. That is a certainty if you believe in the Bible. Since it is a certainty, it is natural and it is ok for believers to want it to happen ASAP and to be happy as events unfold that are in line with the prophecy.

So.... Vlad Drkulec is going to tell everybody which evangelists to believe, which evangelists have made "fundamental errors". Vlad Drkulec is going to tell us when all the end-time pieces are on the board. Vlad Drkulec will pronounce to us that the Clintons are evil and Trump is good.

Sounds like the beginnings of yet another new church, based like all the others on Bible literalism.... with perhaps some Taylor Swift song lyrics added in.

Which gets us around to the comment from Ben Daswani that started all this fuss weeks ago.....

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

So.... Vlad Drkulec is going to tell everybody which evangelists to believe, which evangelists have made "fundamental errors".

You are the one putting forth Van Impe as some kind of authority. I do not recognize his or his wife's authority to speak on spiritual matters. I have pointed out what I believe is his motivation. It is not surprising that as a minion you encourage people to focus on televangelists. When they inevitably stumble people will become disillusioned. There is no need for televangelists. Read the bible and ask God to illuminate your understanding and reveal himself to you. No need to send money to anyone.

Vlad Drkulec is going to tell us when all the end-time pieces are on the board. Vlad Drkulec will pronounce to us that the Clintons are evil and Trump is good.

Hillary chortling when she got the child rapist off by attacking his accuser was a pretty good clue of where she was coming from. Getting bounced off the Watergate commission for a complete lack of ethics was another good clue. Sid has already mentioned the endless stream of people dying under mysterious circumstances surrounding the Clintons.

Sounds like the beginnings of yet another new church, based like all the others on Bible literalism.... with perhaps some Taylor Swift song lyrics added in.

There's a man goin' 'round takin' names
And he decides who to free and who to blame
Everybody won't be treated all the same
There'll be a golden ladder reachin' down
When the man comes around

The hairs on your arm will stand up
At the terror in each sip and in each sup
Will you partake of that last offered cup
Or disappear into the potter's ground?
When the man comes around

Hear the trumpets hear the pipers
One hundred million angels singin'
Multitudes are marchin' to the big kettledrum
Voices callin', voices cryin'
Some are born and some are dyin'
It's alpha and omega's kingdom come
And the whirlwind is in the thorn tree
The virgins are all trimming their wicks
The whirlwind is in the thorn tree
It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks



Read more: Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around Lyrics | MetroLyrics

"And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts
And I looked, and behold a pale horse
And his name that sat on him was death, and hell followed with him"

Songwriters
JOHNNY CASH



Read more: Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around Lyrics | MetroLyrics

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

You are the one putting forth Van Impe as some kind of authority. I do not recognize his or his wife's authority to speak on spiritual matters......

You do not recognize the authority to speak on spiritual matters of Jack Van Impe, a man known as the "Walking Bible" because of his extensive memorization of Bible verses, a man who worked with the Billy Graham crusades, a man running a non-profit organization (Jack Van Impe Presents) to spread the Word of God which you supposedly "believe" in....

and you call me a "minion of Satan"!!!!

Perhaps you are the false prophet.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

You do not recognize the authority to speak on spiritual matters of Jack Van Impe,

Correct.

a man known as the "Walking Bible" because of his extensive memorization of Bible verses, a man who worked with the Billy Graham crusades, a man running a non-profit organization (Jack Van Impe Presents) to spread the Word of God which you supposedly "believe" in....

Matthew Chapter 7
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

and you call me a "minion of Satan"!!!!

If the shoe fits.

Perhaps you are the false prophet.

I am not asking anyone to send me money nor making claims that are not supported by the bible.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

Matthew Chapter 7
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

. . .

I am not asking anyone to send me money nor making claims that are not supported by the bible.

Oh, goody! What we have here, folks, is a prime example of what is wrong with Christianity: one "man of God" knocking down another, and using Bible scripture to do it! Just more proof that the Bible is not what you have been told it is. The above verses can be used to destroy ANY pastor, ANY church, ANY ministry. Just lump it in with all those that God will reject on Judgment Day!


Starting to see the machinations of insanity here, Vlad. You are setting yourself up as one who can and does decide who on Earth is evil and who is not. I knew you were narcissistic, but I didn't fully realize until now that you have a God complex.

I'm smart enough to know there is no debating an insane person, but I'll indulge you a little more.

The basis of your claim against Van Impe and other televangelists is that they ask for money. In Van Impe's case, he runs a non-profit ministry. Therefore it would seem that whatever money he asks for is to support the ministry. Isn't this the same as what all churches do: pass around a plate for donations, to support the ministry? Aren't all pastors of all churches guilty of "asking for money"? They may not be standing at the pulpit and saying "Please give", but the plate is being passed around.

Are you condemning all churches that "ask for money"? Where is the accounting for the money that they take in this way? Who knows what that money is going towards.

So what you seem to be saying is that any ministry that takes in money is evil in God's eye, and will be rejected by God according to the verses you quoted.

You earlier wrote this:
"Two preachers that I occasionally watch (on the order of once every month or two) are Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen. Their messages tend to be uplifting and I don't sense that they are all about the money."

Olseen is most definitely ALL about the money. Here is a direct quote as to what Olsteen feels he preaches about:

"I've said it 1,000 times, it's being healthy, it's having great children, it's having peace of mind. Money is part of it; and yes, I believe God wants us to excel ... to be blessed so we can be a bigger blessing to others."

(from an interview with The Christian Post on April 21, 2013)

OUCH! If that isn't "asking for money" I don't know what is. Maybe you can differentiate it for us?

I've pretty much nailed your sorry ass to the wall here, but I know you'll come back with something because you are, I believe, insane. Thus your constant use of song lyrics when you can't present a reasonable argument (Johnny Cash is rolling in his grave).

I'd sure like to know what works YOU have done in God's name, or more specifically, what makes YOU so privileged as to be able to tell the rest of us who is evil and who is not, and why you yourself are not in fact a most particularly vile and evil person.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

Oh, goody! What we have here, folks, is a prime example of what is wrong with Christianity: one "man of God" knocking down another, and using Bible scripture to do it! Just more proof that the Bible is not what you have been told it is. The above verses can be used to destroy ANY pastor, ANY church, ANY ministry. Just lump it in with all those that God will reject on Judgment Day!

I have not taken Jack Van Impe seriously since I saw him make some prophetic predictions in 1999 or so relating to the Y2K crisis. They were silly patent nonsense and of course did not materialize. More recently he has made some assertions in his books and his television program that are also patent nonsense.

Starting to see the machinations of insanity here, Vlad.

The only insanity here is yours. You are projecting again. Since you are an unbeliever why does it offend you that I don't believe in a televangelist who has given clearly incorrect information to his readers and viewers?

You are setting yourself up as one who can and does decide who on Earth is evil and who is not.

I do not believe he is evil but I do believe he is misguided. Since you are ultimately responsible for your own fate it is silly to entrust it to some other authority whether it be Jack Van Impe or anyone else.

I'm smart enough to know there is no debating an insane person,

Thanks for reminding me that I should be stuffing you back in my ignore list.

The basis of your claim against Van Impe and other televangelists is that they ask for money.

The basis of my decision not to watch Van Impe is that he made false prophecies in 1999 and has made some questionable prophecies about the end times among other things. He has also made incorrect statements which could lead to a false sense of security. In my view he is a false prophet to be avoided.

In Van Impe's case, he runs a non-profit ministry. Therefore it would seem that whatever money he asks for is to support the ministry.
You earlier wrote this:
"Two preachers that I occasionally watch (on the order of once every month or two) are Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen. Their messages tend to be uplifting and I don't sense that they are all about the money."

Olseen is most definitely ALL about the money. Here is a direct quote as to what Olsteen feels he preaches about:

"I've said it 1,000 times, it's being healthy, it's having great children, it's having peace of mind. Money is part of it; and yes, I believe God wants us to excel ... to be blessed so we can be a bigger blessing to others."

(from an interview with The Christian Post on April 21, 2013)

I am not against money and I am not against ministries that ask for money. Osteen was talking about money flowing to the believer and not to his ministry.

I've pretty much nailed your sorry ass to the wall here,

As always you are a legend in your own mind and nowhere else.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

Vlad, I took the liberty to re-order your responses to put them into better priority. Also, thanks for taking me off your ignore list long enough for me to decimate your arguments and "logic". It has been a pleasure doing business with you.

I am not against money and I am not against ministries that ask for money.

Ho boy.... LET'S REVIEW, shall we?......

TV preachers for the most part are entertainment and there to raise money. -- Vlad Drkulec

...Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen. Their messages tend to be uplifting and I don't sense that they are all about the money. -- Vlad Drkulec

I do not recognize (Jack van Impe's) or his wife's authority to speak on spiritual matters. I have pointed out what I believe is his motivation. -- Vlad Drkulec

(MONEY! - p.b.)

Read the bible and ask God to illuminate your understanding and reveal himself to you. No need to send money to anyone. -- Vlad Drkulec

I am not asking anyone to send me money -- Vlad Drkulec

Sounds like you very definitely have a problem with Christians asking for money.

Osteen was talking about money flowing to the believer and not to his ministry.

Olsteen IS A BELIEVER. Therefore he is justifying money flowing to him and is in fact asking for money.

I have not taken Jack Van Impe seriously since I saw him make some prophetic predictions in 1999 or so relating to the Y2K crisis. They were silly patent nonsense and of course did not materialize. More recently he has made some assertions in his books and his television program that are also patent nonsense.

The basis of my decision not to watch Van Impe is that he made false prophecies in 1999 and has made some questionable prophecies about the end times among other things. He has also made incorrect statements which could lead to a false sense of security. In my view he is a false prophet to be avoided.

Since you are an unbeliever why does it offend you that I don't believe in a televangelist who has given clearly incorrect information to his readers and viewers?

Wow.... so much incorrect, false, patent nonsense! And yet, not a word of evidence!

Please, enlighten us, oh holy one! DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING AT ALL?

Since you are ultimately responsible for your own fate it is silly to entrust it to some other authority whether it be Jack Van Impe or anyone else.

Ok, there's a quote for the ages. How about entrusting it to Johnny Cash.... or Taylor Swift.... or Leonard Cohen??? Gotcha!

And by the way, all those songwriters.... PUBLISHED THEIR SONGS FOR MONEY.



DEAR CHESSTALK READER:

If you have persisted to read this far, I want to make one last point here before I say over and out on this thread.

I do not consider it bad for anyone to believe on the teachings of the New Testament of the Bible..... PROVIDED..... one does not feel the compulsion, the absolute need, to bring others into the faith, and one does not pass judgment on others of the faith or outside the faith.

Use your faith for your own self-improvement, and (unlike Vlad Drkulec) to be an example to others. Never be a "holier than thou".

Jesus made it clear that true disciples would be very very few and very very far between.

I would also point out that there is a history to the writing / compiling of the Bible. Learn about that, it's very important! You will discover the flaws of the Bible, and this will propel you to learn more in an attempt to find the truth.

As perhaps the biggest example of a flaw in the Bible, here again are the verses Vlad Drkulec just quoted:

Matthew Chapter 7
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These verses prove above all that the Bible cannot be considered infallible. That is because these verses can be used by any church or Christian to undermine any other church or Christian. Verse 21 is especially damning. What exactly is "the will of my Father"??? It can be anything and everything under the sun. Just cherry pick some other Bible verses, call that "the will of my Father", and destroy some other church as illegitimate.

In fact, Vlad Drkulec used these verses for just that purpose, to undermine Jack van Impe. If you want to become a disciple of Vlad Drkulec, be my guest, but be forewarned that your logic will always be faulty.

And by the way, I don't give any specific credence to Jack van Impe. I brought him up as just one example of televangelists who preach that in the end times, according to the Bible, an alliance of nations including Russia, China and Persia (Iran) will attack Israel in the final battle of Armageddon. And in that context, news that Russia is shipping uranium to Iran is seen as GOOD news by these same televangelists (and perhaps by your local pastor as well) because it is a sign that the end times are approaching. That isn't wishing harm on Israel as Drkulec wants to argue, because the Bible says that Israel MUST AND WILL be attacked in the end time.

Above all, be moral and love others as yourself. That is the essence of "the truth".

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

Enough with the religion debate please, this is a politics thread!
Trump's support continues stubbornly around the 40% level, but the focus should be on health care this week.
The House passed their health care bill earlier. Trump first praised it, then branded it "mean".
The Senate version is up for a vote this week. It seems equally "mean" to me, we should see how the CBO scores it today.
Either version is not what Trump promised on the campaign trail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VA2y5jpGwc

[Ben Daswani]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

As for people like Ben Daswani and Paul Bonham you should stop being minions of Satan. There is no future in it. Best case is that you spend eternity alone in the darkness forever or you are extinguished out of existence. Worst case is that you are tormented forever. Your alternative theology will not be taken into account in deciding your sentence.

I have, without a doubt, never in my life encountered anyone as self-righteous as you are. I can only remain thankful that you have absolutely no effect on the political landscape; you do nothing besides talk tough online. Never change, Drkulec.

[Ben Daswani]

Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

Just these few things make me want to throw up when I hear about the Democrats.

So your pro-Trump stance is based entirely on international relations? I asked for specific ways in which Clinton's election would have harmed Americans and all you could muster was vague fears about Iran bombing Israel. Is that really it? You're a one-issue bloke?