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Female Chess Players and Their Discomfort With Male Chess Players
You came so close to getting it right, Pargat. What I want is for women to have the option of a women-only section "because some males make the females feel uncomfortable and maybe even unsafe." If a woman wishes to play in a section where males and females are both welcome, wonderful.
How do you know this about other sports, Pargat? Do you have access to research that you can cite or is the above just presumption on your part?
I think I understood all along that you meant for female-only sections to be an option, even though that wasn't specified in the original post. It would be something else entirely for one to say that females should ONLY play in their own sections. I don't know, is anyone in the chess world saying that? Maybe Nigel Short, but anyone else?
In my mention of the other thread on this topic, I did say females should encourage other females to join chess and to play in female-only sections.... I believe that Bob A. was arguing that females must play in sections with males in order to "steal" rating points from the males, but I was showing that mathematically the way the ELO rating works, that isn't necessary. But it doesn't mean I think females should ONLY play rated games against females. In fact, what I wanted to get across is that for any female considering chess, she shouldn't think that she MUST play males in order to achieve a high rating. So if she's one who would always go with the option of playing a female-only section, she should do that without worrying about her rating, and if she wants her rating to have more potential to reach male-GM level, she should encourage more females like herself into chess. In other words, grow the membership of females in female-only sections and you grow the rating range potential with that.
As far as other sports, you'll notice I wrote that "it doesn't seem to be the case" for other sports. That is to say, I"m not an expert and no, I haven't done research. I just haven't seen any reports of males being scumbags towards females in tennis or curling or any other sport where they intermingle. But that doesn't mean its not happening.
One thing I do remember is from years ago, I read an article somewhere that there were a lot of lesbians in women's tennis, and many of these lesbians were acting like scumbags to the straight women on the tour. Don't know if that is still happening.
Last edited by Peter McKillop; Sunday, 24th April, 2022, 08:29 PM.
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
This discussion reminds me of recent events at the Reykjavík Open. Twitch Streamer Lularobs posted her experience at the tournament and it wasn't necessarily a good one.
It's not just about sexual harassment but an upending of power relations. Some male's sense of masculine self is threatened when they lose to a female. It's not just being impotent. Haven't you heard the insult "You throw like a girl?" All throughout school you don't want to be considered weak like a girl, or the bullies will pick on you. These players take pride in their thinking, that men are more rational - then take an angry fit when they lose. The bullies better not find out. They will be ejected from the men's club.
Actually "you throw like a girl" isn't about power relations at all, it's about physiological differences between men and women that affect how hard they are able to throw. There's a performance gap in (almost) all sports, but the gap in throwing is even greater than in most.
In all my years playing chess I've honestly never seen what you describe. Chess players can be competitive and they generally don't like losing, but I've never seen someone throw a fit over losing to a women or girl.
As far as harassment of young women at chess tournaments, I'm sure it occurs from time to time, but I don't know what the solution could be other than to speak up when it happens. I'm sure it's a tiny minority of people and not reflective of chess culture at all. Is it worse in chess than in other male-dominated fields like construction, professional sports, etc.? I'm not so sure.
Also, from that article - With my daughter, for instance, the guy I found talking to her once tried to strike up a conversation with her in the skittles room and offer "advice" on how she could have won her games. I couldn't always be there to stop it because I'd still be playing a tournament round myself.
This is just something happens in every skittles room at every chess tournament. Unless there's some reason to think otherwise, it was most likely just a chess enthusiast enjoying kibitzing with other players. If I was at a tournament and I saw a couple of young girls analyzing their game, I don't think it would be inappropriate to kibitz a few suggestions, especially if I knew they were pretty decent players and serious about improving their game. That's one of the things that drew me into chess in the beginning, that people of all ages and backgrounds are welcomed into the community sharing a common passion. Trying to police this type of interaction seems a bit excessive.
Actually "you throw like a girl" isn't about power relations at all, it's about physiological differences between men and women that affect how hard they are able to throw. There's a performance gap in (almost) all sports, but the gap in throwing is even greater than in most.
...
I disagree. I don't think I've ever heard "you throw like a girl" used in a calm, rational discussion concerning physiological differences between men and women. Like Erik, I have heard it used as an insult. As I'm sure you know, insults are used to hurt, to offend, to express disrespect and contempt, and to defame. And yes, they certainly can, and do, play a part in destabilizing power relations. Think of a male bully in a work setting diminishing a co-worker in the eyes of others by using a "you throw like a girl" insult. Think of an abusive husband constantly cementing his control over his wife by way of verbal abuse; insult piled upon insult, day after day after day.
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
I find it strange and even disturbing.... there is a debate as to the effect of the statement "you throw like a girl" when no one is talking about the statement I brought up twice here, the statement by Melania Trump that "boys will be boys" to EXCUSE SEXUAL ASSAULT BY MEN AGAINST WOMEN .... a rationalization that was apparently accepted as suitable by all the female Trump supporters in the 2020 election!
So I must ask.... if there is such a sexual assault at a chess tournament, can the organizers just say "boys will be boys" and leave it at that?
Here's a few tweets from the daughter of Pia Cramling:
@AnnaCramling
Jan 14, 2022
Many are saying that if women wanted to play chess, they would.
Let me ask you this: how would you feel at age of 15, if a male arbiter (50 y.o) told you that you’re not allowed to walk around the open section bc you’re wearing shorts and therefore disturbing the male players?
@AnnaCramling
This happened to me at a very important championship, and it made me feel sad and embarassed for simply wearing shorts when it was 40C outside. We need to make chess a better environment for girls and women in general, to make the ones that do wanna play chess, stay.
There is 2 things to consider here. First, let me ask all the male ChessTalk readers here: If you witness female players walking around in shorts at a chess tournament while you are playing a game, WOULD IT AFFECT YOUR PLAY? BE HONEST!
The second thing is that it should be quite natural for a female to wear shorts at a chess tournament if she so desires.
What does this mean? Earlier I brought up the idea that a lone female who walks into a bar to have a few drinks should know what to expect: not sexual assault, but certainly some minor level of sexual harassment. Should it be the case that a female who walks around in shorts at a chess tournament should expect nearly the same treatment?
I think I am (somewhat regretfully) realizing that chess tournaments, BY THEIR VERY NATURE, are not conducive to intermingling of female and male chess players. Not if a total absence of typical male behavior towards females in a bar is to be expected. For one thing, you can't really police that. And for another, the females probably ARE affecting in a negative way the play of the males.
Of course, then the question can be extended.... should there be female spectators walking around in shorts at a chess tournament? (sigh)
Well, at least then all the male players are dealing with the same problem.
Or.... if you have gay male players in the tournament, should males (whether spectators or players) be wearing shorts at a chess tournament? (sigh)
This all suggests a case for a dress code. But do we want to seem like the Taliban?
I wonder though .... should we make the case that women who play in chess tournaments with both male and female players, like women who go alone into a bar, should just expect some minor level of sexual harassment, and live with it? I'm not promoting that idea, I'm only asking the question.
I find it strange and even disturbing.... there is a debate as to the effect of the statement "you throw like a girl" when no one is talking about the statement I brought up twice here, the statement by Melania Trump that "boys will be boys" to EXCUSE SEXUAL ASSAULT BY MEN AGAINST WOMEN .... a rationalization that was apparently accepted as suitable by all the female Trump supporters in the 2020 election!
So I must ask.... if there is such a sexual assault at a chess tournament, can the organizers just say "boys will be boys" and leave it at that?
Here's a few tweets from the daughter of Pia Cramling:
@AnnaCramling
Jan 14, 2022
Many are saying that if women wanted to play chess, they would.
Let me ask you this: how would you feel at age of 15, if a male arbiter (50 y.o) told you that you’re not allowed to walk around the open section bc you’re wearing shorts and therefore disturbing the male players?
@AnnaCramling
This happened to me at a very important championship, and it made me feel sad and embarassed for simply wearing shorts when it was 40C outside. We need to make chess a better environment for girls and women in general, to make the ones that do wanna play chess, stay.
There is 2 things to consider here. First, let me ask all the male ChessTalk readers here: If you witness female players walking around in shorts at a chess tournament while you are playing a game, WOULD IT AFFECT YOUR PLAY? BE HONEST!
The second thing is that it should be quite natural for a female to wear shorts at a chess tournament if she so desires.
What does this mean? Earlier I brought up the idea that a lone female who walks into a bar to have a few drinks should know what to expect: not sexual assault, but certainly some minor level of sexual harassment. Should it be the case that a female who walks around in shorts at a chess tournament should expect nearly the same treatment?
I think I am (somewhat regretfully) realizing that chess tournaments, BY THEIR VERY NATURE, are not conducive to intermingling of female and male chess players. Not if a total absence of typical male behavior towards females in a bar is to be expected. For one thing, you can't really police that. And for another, the females probably ARE affecting in a negative way the play of the males.
Of course, then the question can be extended.... should there be female spectators walking around in shorts at a chess tournament? (sigh)
Well, at least then all the male players are dealing with the same problem.
Or.... if you have gay male players in the tournament, should males (whether spectators or players) be wearing shorts at a chess tournament? (sigh)
This all suggests a case for a dress code. But do we want to seem like the Taliban?
I wonder though .... should we make the case that women who play in chess tournaments with both male and female players, like women who go alone into a bar, should just expect some minor level of sexual harassment, and live with it? I'm not promoting that idea, I'm only asking the question.
Some thoughts:
1. You have a tendency to overthink things which in turn results in long posts. Maybe there are people here who don't bother with long posts. Just my opinion, of course.
2. Maybe there are some (a lot of?) people at Chesstalk who are totally bored by Melania Trump and couldn't care less what she thinks about anything.
3. Of course 'boys will be boys' is not an acceptable excuse for sexual assault. But surely for any decent human being (which I hope includes everyone at Chesstalk) that statement is a truism; i.e. it doesn't get people worked up enough to trigger a response.
4. All the female Trump supporters in the 2020 election accepted the boys-will-be-boys rationalization for Trump's bad behaviour??? Pargat, get serious! :)
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
Some thoughts:
1. You have a tendency to overthink things which in turn results in long posts. Maybe there are people here who don't bother with long posts. Just my opinion, of course.
2. Maybe there are some (a lot of?) people at Chesstalk who are totally bored by Melania Trump and couldn't care less what she thinks about anything.
3. Of course 'boys will be boys' is not an acceptable excuse for sexual assault. But surely for any decent human being (which I hope includes everyone at Chesstalk) that statement is a truism; i.e. it doesn't get people worked up enough to trigger a response.
4. All the female Trump supporters in the 2020 election accepted the boys-will-be-boys rationalization for Trump's bad behaviour??? Pargat, get serious! :)
Some thoughts on your thoughts:
re: #1
It is fine if someone doesn't care about a particular topic. But if they do care, and they decide not to read a post on that topic just because it is arbitrarily too long, they are too lazy to contribute to the discussion anyway.
Also, regarding overthinking, apparently chess has a problem vis-a-vis the treatment of females by males. Apparently not enough males in chess are doing enough thinking on this problem, so if I am overthinking, maybe that is compensating for the general lack of thinking. At any rate, this accusation of overthinking is too vague to really respond to, it would be better of you could respond to the points I bring up. Saying someone is overthinking is a coward's way out.
re: #2
it's not Melania Trump they should care about, it's the widespread acceptance of her rationalization.
re: #3
I think here you are opining on behalf of all decent human beings that indeed at a chess tournament, boys will be boys, and only if it results in sexual assault would there be a problem, therefore the females should just get used to it. But at the same time, you consider boys who will be boys to be scumbags... or are they only scumbags if they commit sexual assault?
re: #4
Oooops, I should have wrote "nearly all".
And ok, there is one other possibility. Rather than accepting Melania's rationalization, maybe nearly all of the female Trump supporters are actually "ok" with sexual assault by men against women or at the very least put it very low on their list of grievances with current society. I did mention that in an earlier post, that it seems a large contingent of women seem to admire men to are dominating towards women ... a "man's man" is usually how that is expressed I think. A grown-up way of saying boys will be boys, perhaps. Oh, sorry, am I overthinking?
re: #1
It is fine if someone doesn't care about a particular topic. But if they do care, and they decide not to read a post on that topic just because it is arbitrarily too long, they are too lazy to contribute to the discussion anyway.
Also, regarding overthinking, apparently chess has a problem vis-a-vis the treatment of females by males. Apparently not enough males in chess are doing enough thinking on this problem, so if I am overthinking, maybe that is compensating for the general lack of thinking. At any rate, this accusation of overthinking is too vague to really respond to, it would be better of you could respond to the points I bring up. Saying someone is overthinking is a coward's way out.
re: #2
it's not Melania Trump they should care about, it's the widespread acceptance of her rationalization.
re: #3
I think here you are opining on behalf of all decent human beings that indeed at a chess tournament, boys will be boys, and only if it results in sexual assault would there be a problem, therefore the females should just get used to it. But at the same time, you consider boys who will be boys to be scumbags... or are they only scumbags if they commit sexual assault?
re: #4
Oooops, I should have wrote "nearly all".
And ok, there is one other possibility. Rather than accepting Melania's rationalization, maybe nearly all of the female Trump supporters are actually "ok" with sexual assault by men against women or at the very least put it very low on their list of grievances with current society. I did mention that in an earlier post, that it seems a large contingent of women seem to admire men to are dominating towards women ... a "man's man" is usually how that is expressed I think. A grown-up way of saying boys will be boys, perhaps. Oh, sorry, am I overthinking?
One thing I do remember is from years ago, I read an article somewhere that there were a lot of lesbians in women's tennis, and many of these lesbians were acting like scumbags to the straight women on the tour. Don't know if that is still happening.
Last edited by Peter McKillop; Tuesday, 26th April, 2022, 08:17 PM.
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
What about females who play males at chess and deliberately dress provocatively and try to distract the male from the board, hoping to entice a blunder and win the game? Are they scumbags?
There is 2 things to consider here. First, let me ask all the male ChessTalk readers here: If you witness female players walking around in shorts at a chess tournament while you are playing a game, WOULD IT AFFECT YOUR PLAY? BE HONEST!
What type of shorts are we talking about? I recall a female player wearing cut-off jeans that were skimpier than a pair of erotic panties (not to mention a very light tank-top). A few men did in fact make remarks (a couple of women too), many at least glared at her, and she came to me to complain about it. I do not recall being particularly sympathetic.
Now, I am not absolutely certain about this, but I do seem to remember an article in En Passant from my times at the CFC wherein Todd Southam commented upon males, or perhaps one male, being distracted by the provocative apparel of a female player.
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