Female Chess Players and Their Discomfort With Male Chess Players

[Pargat Perrer]

Once again, you are assuming I’m homosexual or have something wrong with me. You seem to take a lot of offense to comments not directed towards you, I’m sorry you feel the need to justify staring at people’s chest by lashing out at others as a means of défense.

i am well over the age of puberty and I certainly have no developmental delays


you continue to talk in circles and you full stop discredited yourself by saying that homosexual men shouldn’t commenting on this issue, then where the fuck do you get off by comment on the discomfort of females in the chess world. It’s like you keep picking up a bigger shovel cause you’re digging a deeper hole for yourself with every comment you make.

I have not written that there is "something wrong" with you. That is your interpretation and it is wrong. Peter McKillop has made the same mistake, he writes that I used the term homosexual as a pejorative. That is daft and I challenge him to prove it.

Let me ask you something Henri: Why do you think grown women in North America almost universally shave their legs? Could it possibly be to ATTRACT MALE ATTENTION? Why else would they do it? There is no health benefit. There is no psychological benefit.

Why do women wear lipstick and makeup? Could it be to ATTRACT MALE ATTENTION?

Get your brain in gear, Henri, do some thinking instead of spouting nonsense. You say you are not homosexual and you are not developmentally delayed. So.... what is your excuse for NOT UNDERSTANDING what Conan O'Brien and his audience totally understood, that red-blooded heterosexual males will give plenty of attention to pretty females who flaunt themselves? And yes, that attention will include staring, and there is nothing illegal nor "regressive" about it.

And to David Ottosen's point that we (meaning males) are not cavemen .... and can control our base urges .... allow me to repost what I have already posted here....

"The first reality the chess world has to face is that men – for the most part – are preoccupied with sex, particularly at chess tournaments.

This is not conjecture or opinion – what I'm saying is actually documented in "Chess Bitch: Women in the Ultimate Intellectual Sport," by Jennifer Shahade, a world-renowned chess player, educator and author.

...

Even grandmasters wrestle with thoughts of sex during chess tournaments. For instance, Shahade wrote that, according U.S. Chess Hall of Famer Alexander Shabalov, most men are thinking about sex for most of the game.

"With characteristic candor, the Latvian -born grandmaster tells me, 'In most games, I am thinking about girls for about fifty to seventy-five percent of the time,'" Shahade wrote."

In other words, the males are NOT thinking about the game in progress about 50 to 75 percent of the time when there are females about .... unless there is something weird or unnatural about Shabalov?

[Henri Hughes]

Once again, you are assuming I’m homosexual or have something wrong with me. You seem to take a lot of offense to comments not directed towards you, I’m sorry you feel the need to justify staring at people’s chest by lashing out at others as a means of défense.

i am well over the age of puberty and I certainly have no developmental delays


you continue to talk in circles and you full stop discredited yourself by saying that homosexual men shouldn’t commenting on this issue, then where the fuck do you get off by comment on the discomfort of females in the chess world. It’s like you keep picking up a bigger shovel cause you’re digging a deeper hole for yourself with every comment you make.

[Patrick Kirby]

The responsibility goes both ways. Women should realize that if they dress a certain way they will attract a certain kind of attention, and that not all ways of dressing are appropriate in all social situations.

At the same time, men should understand that giving "sexual" attention is not appropriate in all situations and should learn to restrain themselves. Especially when the "object" of their attention has made it clear that they are not comfortable with it.

[Peter McKillop]

You are under-thinking, Peter. Please, think! I encourage it.

My point was that only a homosexual male is NOT going to understand how heterosexual males react in the presence of provocatively-dressed and attractive females, and it going to call such men engaged in natural behavior as "regressed creeps" much as you refer to them as "scumbags".

Another brilliancy from Pargat Perrer! Are you really so ignorant as to think that homosexuals don't understand, and have no experience of, the male libido? The issue that is supposed to be under discussion in this thread is male harrassment of females in the world of chess. And Pargat Perrer thinks that it would be good, with no provocation, to insist that another poster must be homosexual because he's not bowing down to the Pargat Perrer point of view??

But ok, I will grant you, I should have also realized that Henri could be either under the age of puberty or is just a "hormone delayed" heterosexual. However, i don't think that applies to YOU, Peter, soooooo....... ????

So in your mind, Pargat, poor Henri, because he had the temerity to disagree with you, must be homosexual, or pre-puberty, or hormone-delayed? Are you enjoying yourself here at Chesstalk, Pargat? Getting a lot of that inner violence and hatred off of your chest?

I don't care whether anyone is homo or hetero, (You have proven otherwise, Pargat. In your mind 'homosexual' is a pejorative term.) but for the sake of this thread's topic, homosexual men should not be making arguments against heterosexual men's behavior towards women (nonsense!) unless it involves criminal behavior or behavior that can be agreed by all as morally or ethically wrong. I don't think of looking or staring as morally or ethically wrong, and the laws of Canada seem to be on my side.

Sorry for another long, over-thought post.

Ten characters.

[David Ottosen]

Why? Why should it be the males? Why shouldn't the females learn to dress more conservatively? Who are you to impose such restrictions on hetersexual males that go against their very nature? Who are you to determine that heterosexual males staring at a pretty woman are regressed creeps? Staring isn't illegal. If the woman doesn't like it, tough beans, it's a natural heterosexual male tendency.

I can only hope this is poorly written parody. We aren't cavemen who have a brain the size of a peanut and have the ability to control our base urges when they make others uncomfortable.

[Patrick Kirby]

"Mansplaining" I've been guilty of that. A women player was upset that I said it was a theoretical draw. But it can also be an unhealthy attempt by a man to become a "mentor" or "friend," to exchange sexual glances, have dinner and so on. And when a group of men are leaning over, trapping her in, competing for her attention, it can be very uncomfortable.

I don't see it that way..okay there are situations where it might not be appropriate to kibitz when you see two players analyzing, but usually it's okay. 99 times out of a hundred it is done in good faith and for many it's part of the fun of participating in organized chess. It strikes me that that author seemed a bit out of touch with this aspect of chess culture. OK, maybe the situation he referenced was that rare time where something is "off", I can't say, but I still think having gender segregated skittles rooms like he suggested is a stupid idea.

As far as people using kibitzing to strike up a romance, i haven't seen it myself, though i know a good many female chess players end up dating male chess players, so maybe it happens. What would you suggest to a single male friend who saw an attractive young lady at a chess tournament and wanted to get to know her? Forget about it because a chess tournament shouldn't be for socializing? I feel like there should be a middle ground where a guy can strike up a conversation to try to gage interest, as long as he's respectful if the other person doesn't reciprocate.

[Pargat Perrer]

WTF?!?! Why would you make a comment like this? Whatever Henri's sexuality is, how does it advance your arguments to make that comment? Explain!

You are under-thinking, Peter. Please, think! I encourage it.

My point was that only a homosexual male is NOT going to understand how heterosexual males react in the presence of provocatively-dressed and attractive females, and it going to call such men engaged in natural behavior as "regressed creeps" much as you refer to them as "scumbags".

But ok, I will grant you, I should have also realized that Henri could be either under the age of puberty or is just a "hormone delayed" heterosexual. However, i don't think that applies to YOU, Peter, soooooo....... ????

I don't care whether anyone is homo or hetero, but for the sake of this thread's topic, homosexual men should not be making arguments against heterosexual men's behavior towards women unless it involves criminal behavior or behavior that can be agreed by all as morally or ethically wrong. I don't think of looking or staring as morally or ethically wrong, and the laws of Canada seem to be on my side.

Sorry for another long, over-thought post.

[Pargat Perrer]

Hi Pargat:

Your Question to me: Should males who are only doing what is natural, -- what they would be doing if a female came alone into a bar -- oblige the females in their request REGARDLESS OF HOW THE FEMALES DRESS?

Answer (Not complicated) - YES.

~ Bob A (T-S/P)

Ok, what about the part you wrote about "why should chess be any different?" regarding the tendency of males to ogle pretty females. If your opinion is that yes, chess should be different (from the outside world), they WHY?

But even more importantly, you didn't answer the second part of the question. How do you ENFORCE males not ogling pretty female players at mixed chess tournaments? If they can ogle the female spectators (if any), why not the female players?

How do you enforce it without making the enforcement so ridiculous that many males will no longer play in mixed events?

"Any male player caught staring for more than 1 second at any female player will be defaulted from his match and removed from the playing site." Is that the kind of thing you want to see?

[Pargat Perrer]

im not discussing in a culural sense, your need to make assumptions leaves you quite blind to what im saying, I am simply commenting on the morality of the fact that men should be the ones to deal with themselves instead of putting it on females because they cant keep themselves in check

Why? Why should it be the males? Why shouldn't the females learn to dress more conservatively? Who are you to impose such restrictions on hetersexual males that go against their very nature? Who are you to determine that heterosexual males staring at a pretty woman are regressed creeps? Staring isn't illegal. If the woman doesn't like it, tough beans, it's a natural heterosexual male tendency.

I saw a clip of a Conan O'Brien interview of a famous actress. She was dressed VERY provocatively. When they were both seated, Conan looked at her, and looked down at her dress. She said to Conan something like "look up, Conan, my face is up here."

Conan went into a minor tirade. "You can't come on her dressed like THAT and tell me not to look! I'm a red-blooded heterosexual male, I'm going to STARE!" And as he was saying it, he was leaning closer to her and staring right at her cleavage.

And the crowd cheered wildly!!!!

If you're not homosexual, you got a LOT to learn, Henri.

[Peter McKillop]

.... I could ask if you are a homosexual, but that would probably be considered a privacy invasion. Instead, I will simply assume you are a homosexual.
....

WTF?!?! Why would you make a comment like this? Whatever Henri's sexuality is, how does it advance your arguments to make that comment? Explain!

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Pargat:

Your Question to me: Should males who are only doing what is natural, -- what they would be doing if a female came alone into a bar -- oblige the females in their request REGARDLESS OF HOW THE FEMALES DRESS?

Answer (Not complicated) - YES.

~ Bob A (T-S/P)

[Henri Hughes]

There are many cultures where that is simply NOT the case .... in many Arab countries, for example. You are thus imposing your own cultural beliefs onto chess, which is a global activity, with many prominent events held in Arab countries.

im not discussing in a culural sense, your need to make assumptions leaves you quite blind to what im saying, I am simply commenting on the morality of the fact that men should be the ones to deal with themselves instead of putting it on females because they cant keep themselves in check

[Henri Hughes]

So males who stare at pretty females are "regressed creeps"? I think you are guilty of your own form of bs. I could ask if you are a homosexual, but that would probably be considered a privacy invasion. Instead, I will simply assume you are a homosexual.

I would agree that males who sexually assault pretty females are regressed creeps. But staring? That is perfectly natural for a heterosexual male. Nothing regressed or creepy about it.

What I think is that this expectation of certain females (perhaps who are themselves homosexual) that they can dress in shorts or tank tops and NOT be stared at or hit on by males .... that expectation is where the true bs lies.

You can't stop Mother Nature.

not sure how this has to do with my sexuality, feel free to continue making incorrect statements, i chose my wording carefully, yes LOOKING is natural, but having decency is to not stare, there is a big difference between the two.

[Pargat Perrer]

its not a females responsibilty to dress a certain way so men wont look at them ....

There are many cultures where that is simply NOT the case .... in many Arab countries, for example. You are thus imposing your own cultural beliefs onto chess, which is a global activity, with many prominent events held in Arab countries.

[Pargat Perrer]

its not a females responsibilty to dress a certain way so men wont look at them, nor is it there fault if some regressed creep stares at them because of his own pent up crap. this is patriarchal bs that is being projected onto the female chess population.

So males who stare at pretty females are "regressed creeps"? I think you are guilty of your own form of bs. I could ask if you are a homosexual, but that would probably be considered a privacy invasion. Instead, I will simply assume you are a homosexual.

I would agree that males who sexually assault pretty females are regressed creeps. But staring? That is perfectly natural for a heterosexual male. Nothing regressed or creepy about it.

What I think is that this expectation of certain females (perhaps who are themselves homosexual) that they can dress in shorts or tank tops and NOT be stared at or hit on by males .... that expectation is where the true bs lies.

You can't stop Mother Nature.