Female Chess Players and Their Discomfort With Male Chess Players

[Pargat Perrer]

im not discussing in a culural sense, your need to make assumptions leaves you quite blind to what im saying, I am simply commenting on the morality of the fact that men should be the ones to deal with themselves instead of putting it on females because they cant keep themselves in check

Why? Why should it be the males? Why shouldn't the females learn to dress more conservatively? Who are you to impose such restrictions on hetersexual males that go against their very nature? Who are you to determine that heterosexual males staring at a pretty woman are regressed creeps? Staring isn't illegal. If the woman doesn't like it, tough beans, it's a natural heterosexual male tendency.

I saw a clip of a Conan O'Brien interview of a famous actress. She was dressed VERY provocatively. When they were both seated, Conan looked at her, and looked down at her dress. She said to Conan something like "look up, Conan, my face is up here."

Conan went into a minor tirade. "You can't come on her dressed like THAT and tell me not to look! I'm a red-blooded heterosexual male, I'm going to STARE!" And as he was saying it, he was leaning closer to her and staring right at her cleavage.

And the crowd cheered wildly!!!!

If you're not homosexual, you got a LOT to learn, Henri.

[Pargat Perrer]

Hi Pargat:

Your Question to me: Should males who are only doing what is natural, -- what they would be doing if a female came alone into a bar -- oblige the females in their request REGARDLESS OF HOW THE FEMALES DRESS?

Answer (Not complicated) - YES.

~ Bob A (T-S/P)

Ok, what about the part you wrote about "why should chess be any different?" regarding the tendency of males to ogle pretty females. If your opinion is that yes, chess should be different (from the outside world), they WHY?

But even more importantly, you didn't answer the second part of the question. How do you ENFORCE males not ogling pretty female players at mixed chess tournaments? If they can ogle the female spectators (if any), why not the female players?

How do you enforce it without making the enforcement so ridiculous that many males will no longer play in mixed events?

"Any male player caught staring for more than 1 second at any female player will be defaulted from his match and removed from the playing site." Is that the kind of thing you want to see?

[Pargat Perrer]

WTF?!?! Why would you make a comment like this? Whatever Henri's sexuality is, how does it advance your arguments to make that comment? Explain!

You are under-thinking, Peter. Please, think! I encourage it.

My point was that only a homosexual male is NOT going to understand how heterosexual males react in the presence of provocatively-dressed and attractive females, and it going to call such men engaged in natural behavior as "regressed creeps" much as you refer to them as "scumbags".

But ok, I will grant you, I should have also realized that Henri could be either under the age of puberty or is just a "hormone delayed" heterosexual. However, i don't think that applies to YOU, Peter, soooooo....... ????

I don't care whether anyone is homo or hetero, but for the sake of this thread's topic, homosexual men should not be making arguments against heterosexual men's behavior towards women unless it involves criminal behavior or behavior that can be agreed by all as morally or ethically wrong. I don't think of looking or staring as morally or ethically wrong, and the laws of Canada seem to be on my side.

Sorry for another long, over-thought post.

[Patrick Kirby]

"Mansplaining" I've been guilty of that. A women player was upset that I said it was a theoretical draw. But it can also be an unhealthy attempt by a man to become a "mentor" or "friend," to exchange sexual glances, have dinner and so on. And when a group of men are leaning over, trapping her in, competing for her attention, it can be very uncomfortable.

I don't see it that way..okay there are situations where it might not be appropriate to kibitz when you see two players analyzing, but usually it's okay. 99 times out of a hundred it is done in good faith and for many it's part of the fun of participating in organized chess. It strikes me that that author seemed a bit out of touch with this aspect of chess culture. OK, maybe the situation he referenced was that rare time where something is "off", I can't say, but I still think having gender segregated skittles rooms like he suggested is a stupid idea.

As far as people using kibitzing to strike up a romance, i haven't seen it myself, though i know a good many female chess players end up dating male chess players, so maybe it happens. What would you suggest to a single male friend who saw an attractive young lady at a chess tournament and wanted to get to know her? Forget about it because a chess tournament shouldn't be for socializing? I feel like there should be a middle ground where a guy can strike up a conversation to try to gage interest, as long as he's respectful if the other person doesn't reciprocate.

[David Ottosen]

Why? Why should it be the males? Why shouldn't the females learn to dress more conservatively? Who are you to impose such restrictions on hetersexual males that go against their very nature? Who are you to determine that heterosexual males staring at a pretty woman are regressed creeps? Staring isn't illegal. If the woman doesn't like it, tough beans, it's a natural heterosexual male tendency.

I can only hope this is poorly written parody. We aren't cavemen who have a brain the size of a peanut and have the ability to control our base urges when they make others uncomfortable.

[Peter McKillop]

You are under-thinking, Peter. Please, think! I encourage it.

My point was that only a homosexual male is NOT going to understand how heterosexual males react in the presence of provocatively-dressed and attractive females, and it going to call such men engaged in natural behavior as "regressed creeps" much as you refer to them as "scumbags".

Another brilliancy from Pargat Perrer! Are you really so ignorant as to think that homosexuals don't understand, and have no experience of, the male libido? The issue that is supposed to be under discussion in this thread is male harrassment of females in the world of chess. And Pargat Perrer thinks that it would be good, with no provocation, to insist that another poster must be homosexual because he's not bowing down to the Pargat Perrer point of view??

But ok, I will grant you, I should have also realized that Henri could be either under the age of puberty or is just a "hormone delayed" heterosexual. However, i don't think that applies to YOU, Peter, soooooo....... ????

So in your mind, Pargat, poor Henri, because he had the temerity to disagree with you, must be homosexual, or pre-puberty, or hormone-delayed? Are you enjoying yourself here at Chesstalk, Pargat? Getting a lot of that inner violence and hatred off of your chest?

I don't care whether anyone is homo or hetero, (You have proven otherwise, Pargat. In your mind 'homosexual' is a pejorative term.) but for the sake of this thread's topic, homosexual men should not be making arguments against heterosexual men's behavior towards women (nonsense!) unless it involves criminal behavior or behavior that can be agreed by all as morally or ethically wrong. I don't think of looking or staring as morally or ethically wrong, and the laws of Canada seem to be on my side.

Sorry for another long, over-thought post.

Ten characters.

[Patrick Kirby]

The responsibility goes both ways. Women should realize that if they dress a certain way they will attract a certain kind of attention, and that not all ways of dressing are appropriate in all social situations.

At the same time, men should understand that giving "sexual" attention is not appropriate in all situations and should learn to restrain themselves. Especially when the "object" of their attention has made it clear that they are not comfortable with it.

[Henri Hughes]

Once again, you are assuming I’m homosexual or have something wrong with me. You seem to take a lot of offense to comments not directed towards you, I’m sorry you feel the need to justify staring at people’s chest by lashing out at others as a means of défense.

i am well over the age of puberty and I certainly have no developmental delays


you continue to talk in circles and you full stop discredited yourself by saying that homosexual men shouldn’t commenting on this issue, then where the fuck do you get off by comment on the discomfort of females in the chess world. It’s like you keep picking up a bigger shovel cause you’re digging a deeper hole for yourself with every comment you make.

[Pargat Perrer]

Once again, you are assuming I’m homosexual or have something wrong with me. You seem to take a lot of offense to comments not directed towards you, I’m sorry you feel the need to justify staring at people’s chest by lashing out at others as a means of défense.

i am well over the age of puberty and I certainly have no developmental delays


you continue to talk in circles and you full stop discredited yourself by saying that homosexual men shouldn’t commenting on this issue, then where the fuck do you get off by comment on the discomfort of females in the chess world. It’s like you keep picking up a bigger shovel cause you’re digging a deeper hole for yourself with every comment you make.

I have not written that there is "something wrong" with you. That is your interpretation and it is wrong. Peter McKillop has made the same mistake, he writes that I used the term homosexual as a pejorative. That is daft and I challenge him to prove it.

Let me ask you something Henri: Why do you think grown women in North America almost universally shave their legs? Could it possibly be to ATTRACT MALE ATTENTION? Why else would they do it? There is no health benefit. There is no psychological benefit.

Why do women wear lipstick and makeup? Could it be to ATTRACT MALE ATTENTION?

Get your brain in gear, Henri, do some thinking instead of spouting nonsense. You say you are not homosexual and you are not developmentally delayed. So.... what is your excuse for NOT UNDERSTANDING what Conan O'Brien and his audience totally understood, that red-blooded heterosexual males will give plenty of attention to pretty females who flaunt themselves? And yes, that attention will include staring, and there is nothing illegal nor "regressive" about it.

And to David Ottosen's point that we (meaning males) are not cavemen .... and can control our base urges .... allow me to repost what I have already posted here....

"The first reality the chess world has to face is that men – for the most part – are preoccupied with sex, particularly at chess tournaments.

This is not conjecture or opinion – what I'm saying is actually documented in "Chess Bitch: Women in the Ultimate Intellectual Sport," by Jennifer Shahade, a world-renowned chess player, educator and author.

...

Even grandmasters wrestle with thoughts of sex during chess tournaments. For instance, Shahade wrote that, according U.S. Chess Hall of Famer Alexander Shabalov, most men are thinking about sex for most of the game.

"With characteristic candor, the Latvian -born grandmaster tells me, 'In most games, I am thinking about girls for about fifty to seventy-five percent of the time,'" Shahade wrote."

In other words, the males are NOT thinking about the game in progress about 50 to 75 percent of the time when there are females about .... unless there is something weird or unnatural about Shabalov?

[Pargat Perrer]

Another brilliancy from Pargat Perrer! Are you really so ignorant as to think that homosexuals don't understand, and have no experience of, the male libido? The issue that is supposed to be under discussion in this thread is male harrassment of females in the world of chess. And Pargat Perrer thinks that it would be good, with no provocation, to insist that another poster must be homosexual because he's not bowing down to the Pargat Perrer point of view??

No, in Henri's case it's because Henri is not understanding the NATURAL behavior of heterosexual men when attractive females are around them. I have now given 3 possible reasons for his non-understanding. If you think the reason might be something else, please enlighten us.

This isn't about agreeing with my point of view, as you very well know Peter, so stop with the straw man arguments. This is about understanding the millennia-old and still current behavior of heterosexual males when pretty females are around and are dressed in attire such as shorts and tank tops. You can't regulate that to the point of trying to outlaw staring.

So in your mind, Pargat, poor Henri, because he had the temerity to disagree with you, must be homosexual, or pre-puberty, or hormone-delayed? Are you enjoying yourself here at Chesstalk, Pargat? Getting a lot of that inner violence and hatred off of your chest?

Again, not because Henri disagreed with me, you only embarrass yourself with that line of argument. Again, feel free to enlighten us if you have some other explanation for Henri's lack of understanding of NATURAL heterosexual male behavior when attractive females are around them dressed provocatively.

And thanks for the psychological analysis, Dr. McKillop. I think I'll go for a second opinion.

You have proven otherwise, Pargat. In your mind 'homosexual' is a pejorative term.

Ahhhh, the Doctor has made his conclusion. Well, what can one expect for a free analysis? or maybe he's going to bill OHIP???

[Pargat Perrer]

I can only hope this is poorly written parody. We aren't cavemen who have a brain the size of a peanut and have the ability to control our base urges when they make others uncomfortable.

No one is saying we don't have that ability. I'm asking why everything should be on the males. Would you agree that this controlling of our base urges is DIFFICULT for the typical heterosexual male, especially if he is single and between the ages of say 16 to whatever age you think such males no longer have such base urges?

If yes, you agree it is difficult, then why at chess tournaments should it all be on the males? The females are free to wear whatever they like ... in fact, in Ontario they are allowed by law to even go topless in public.

Let me repost what I posted earlier in this thread....

"The first reality the chess world has to face is that men – for the most part – are preoccupied with sex, particularly at chess tournaments.

This is not conjecture or opinion – what I'm saying is actually documented in "Chess Bitch: Women in the Ultimate Intellectual Sport," by Jennifer Shahade, a world-renowned chess player, educator and author.

...

Even grandmasters wrestle with thoughts of sex during chess tournaments. For instance, Shahade wrote that, according U.S. Chess Hall of Famer Alexander Shabalov, most men are thinking about sex for most of the game.

"With characteristic candor, the Latvian -born grandmaster tells me, 'In most games, I am thinking about girls for about fifty to seventy-five percent of the time,'" Shahade wrote."

Why don't you respond to that as well? Would you say Shabalov is some kind of pervert, or in Henri's words, "regressed creep"?

[Bob Gillanders]

Well, this thread has been mildly entertaining.
But it appears to me (with my limited literary comprehension) that Pargat is simply trolling everyone.

I think the overwhelming majority of chess players display acceptable social behaviour at tournaments and clubs.
I am sure a few bad apples exist. I would hope their victims would bring it to the attention of the TD or club officials.
That is far better than suffering in silence or quitting.

It should be easy to spot any bad behaviour at the board if we are alerted to the problem.
As TD, I would watch for it and take appropriate action.

[Pargat Perrer]

Well, this thread has been mildly entertaining.
But it appears to me (with my limited literary comprehension) that Pargat is simply trolling everyone.

I think the overwhelming majority of chess players display acceptable social behaviour at tournaments and clubs.
I am sure a few bad apples exist. I would hope their victims would bring it to the attention of the TD or club officials.
That is far better than suffering in silence or quitting.

It should be easy to spot any bad behaviour at the board if we are alerted to the problem.
As TD, I would watch for it and take appropriate action.

Such trite, non-thinking responses. "Pargat is using homosexual as a pejorative" (no evidence). "Pargat is trolling everyone" (this statement can be made about anyone with no evidence).

Where are the thinking people here?

Bob G., you are denying there is a problem except for a few "bad apples". You are diminishing the complaints of many women, as expressed here AND elsewhere.

Now, for the sake of doing some thinking, please define exactly:

1) the least offensive behavior of males towards females that you would consider "bad behaviour".

2) the exact meaning of "appropriate action".

These specifications should be WRITTEN INTO ANY MIXED TOURNAMENT EVENT YOU RUN AS TD. Otherwise, if you (for example) remove from your tournament any male who is staring at females and making them uncomfortable, you can be sued by that male in small claims court.

Also, I bet you have never "watched for it" in any event in the past in which you were TD. You are just now saying you will watch for it. In a month or so, you will have totally forgotten about it.

[Peter McKillop]

I have not written that there is "something wrong" with you. That is your interpretation and it is wrong. Peter McKillop has made the same mistake, he writes that I used the term homosexual as a pejorative. That is daft and I challenge him to prove it. ....

Happy to oblige, Pargat.

So males who stare at pretty females are "regressed creeps"? I think you are guilty of your own form of bs. I could ask if you are a homosexual, but that would probably be considered a privacy invasion. Instead, I will simply assume you are a homosexual.

In this thread, I believe the above was your first direct response to Henri. So what load of shit are you going to lay on us now, Pargat?

[Fred Harvey]

Over time, Pargat Perrer has proved to be a bit of an idiot on here. Not a capital offence, and most posters ignored him. However, after reading several truly cringe-worthy posts from him on this thread, he seems to be a totally unpleasant idiot. Why on earth are a few of you allowing him to drag you back into the dark ages - he should be gone?

To comment on the original topic, chess is an individual game, and can attract more than it's fair share of losers with social issues. It is not really surprising that girls would find this more "challenging" than other activities, surely!