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My name is listed in one of the bids, so I am not going to express my view of advantages and/or disadvantages of each bid.
I just want to clarify statement of a question: “We need to save Canadian Open!” how it was formulated in some previous posts.
Canadian Open (CO) is a great tournament, many chess players including kids love to play in it. But why is there a danger for 2011 CO? In 2009, CO took place in Edmonton one week before CYCC in Victoria, and many kids participated in both tournaments. In 2010 CO took place in Toronto one week after CYCC in Windsor, and again many kids participated in both tournaments.
So, what is the difference if in 2011 CO will take place in Toronto one week after CYCC in Richmond Hill (which is, by the way, much closer to Toronto than Windsor)? It was working perfectly for many years, so why do we need for the next year to “re-invent the bicycle”? I am sure that many kids will participate in both tournaments just as usual.
So, I think, there may be the compromise: CYCC may take place in Richmond Hill, and CO – in Toronto one week later. To make this work, Ted Winick may just revise his bid, and re-present it for CO only. I don’t see this as a problem for him, taking into account that six weeks ago he declared out loud that he has no interest in organizing CYCC. At that time Ted, an enthusiastic organizer, was asked to put two tournaments in one bid to save CYCC (there was no any other bids at that moment). We all appreciate Ted’s efforts to save CYCC.
But now the situation has changed. CYCC does not need to be saved anymore because there is another bid.
So, let’s just go back to the traditional schedule.
[...]
But now the situation has changed. CYCC does not need to be saved anymore because there is another bid.
So, let?s just go back to the traditional schedule.
July is a very busy momth for the year and people reserve the facility for weding etc one year in advance. That's almost the only choice we have at the time when we spoke to the Hotel manager and we don't want to have conflict with World Open. By chance it works perfectly with CO.
I agree completely with Victor. It's too much of a commitment to make. Not to mention 14 games in 7 days usually has the tendencies to exhaust just about anyone.
I have now posted your post on the confidential Governors' Discussion Board, in the CYCC thread debate, that preceeds them voting on the competing bids, starting Nov. 19. They'll now know your opinion.
Fred, I respect you as a man of integrity, have the courage to take on tough questions and answer them honestly with the infomation you have on on hand. For this, on behalf of all junior players, chess parents & potential CO attendees, I thank you.
From your reply, I've deduced the following:
1) the excess entry fee money from the CYCC will put into the joint pot with CO,
What excess?
Typically doesn't $125 per entry go to the CFC to pay for the winners' trip to the WYCC? That leaves $50 per entry to go towards tournament expenses. The typical CYCC attracts about 150 competitors. That is a total of about $7500 toward all of the expenses incurred to run a major event. I suspect that the cost of renting the hotel would be significantly more than that in Toronto. My understanding is that most CYCC tournaments receive some kind of significant sponsorship monies usually through local or provincial governments.
Last edited by Vlad Drkulec; Saturday, 13th November, 2010, 11:44 AM.
These bids are being discussed by the Governors and I don't feel it's my place to answer that question, however I would suspect that any joint CYCC/CO bid, ever, has used the excess entry fee money from the CYCC to put into the joint pot (perhaps the most innocent use is to help pay for the facilties).
Vlad, those were Fred's words.
Fred, what excess?
Last edited by Michael Lo; Saturday, 13th November, 2010, 03:37 AM.
Canadian Junior and Under-16 Championships were originally - and for many years - one round per day. The participants were a mixture of the best kids from each region of Canada, and the highest rated kids. When new age categories, as well as the Girls categories, were added, the Youth Championships grew larger. It's nearly impossible to get a free or low cost playing site for a week for a sizeable group. To pay the rent, the Championships became open - any kid could qualify simply by paying the entry fee. This meant that a large group of kids would attend. Thus, the organizers could afford a large playing hall for a few days. So, the event was shortened to about 4 days.
Quality
With only 4 days, 2 games/day were needed to determine a winner, and often playoffs were still needed, because of the large number of players in the Swiss format. Perhaps the quality of games goes down; I don't know, but I suspect so. Mark Bluvshtein describes one game per day as 'professional; substantially increasing the quality of the games.' You can see why: it's the format used in the Canadian Closed Championship and all World Championships.
Money
Were more funds raised by this method? With entry open to all, there were no more qualifiers held. Qualifiers have the potential to be big sources of funds, as kids from across Canada try for a limited number of spaces in the final round-robin. This was the original vision, which never took off. It's also a way to get broad participation across Canada - something we very much need.
History again
Back in 2003, I put in a bid to host the Youth and Open Championships in Toronto at the same time. This was an effort to boost CFC membership. If most of our chess players are in Toronto, then give them an event to play in. They will join or renew their CFC memberships. An open youth event in Toronto should attract a huge crowd. But my bid was turned down in favour of holding it in Kapuskasing a second year in a row.
Future
Ellen Nadeau (of Kapuskasing fame :-) became Junior Coordinator and re-introduced the older format of qualifying events. 2011 will be the first year they are implemented. So, we are back to the old format: a limited number of players. Therefore, getting broad participation; and raising the necessary funds to send the winners to the World Youth Championships both depend on the success of the qualifiers.
If you accept the new rules, where the best players compete for the Canadian Championship, then it makes sense to hold this event as one game per day. Combining it with the Canadian Open on the same days also saves the Canadian chess community the rent on a 4 day CYCC, about $4,000. So, I ask that you focus your energy on making the Qualifiers a success.
The Canadian Junior (U20) and Canadian Cadet (U16) were traditionally round-robin, invitational events. The Junior took place between Christmas and New Years, and the Cadet usually in March.
The Cadet was held in this format until (at least) 1997, and the Junior until (at least) 1998-99. The Cadet was usually a 10 player round robin, spread out over 5 days.
More examples - the Junior of 1978-79 was a 12 player round robin - one game a day and one rest day - from Dec. 26 through Jan. 6. Those of 1980-81 and 1982-83 were the same - but no rest days. Unfortunately, I don't have date info readily available on more recent events - but eventually the round-robins began to have two games a day (but still 12 players).
...
Ellen Nadeau (of Kapuskasing fame :-) became Junior Coordinator and re-introduced the older format of qualifying events. 2011 will be the first year they are implemented. So, we are back to the old format: a limited number of players. Therefore, getting broad participation; and raising the necessary funds to send the winners to the World Youth Championships both depend on the success of the qualifiers.
If you accept the new rules, where the best players compete for the Canadian Championship, then it makes sense to hold this event as one game per day. Combining it with the Canadian Open on the same days also saves the Canadian chess community the rent on a 4 day CYCC, about $4,000. So, I ask that you focus your energy on making the Qualifiers a success.
Regards,
David
David Cohen, IA
If in fact there will be qualifiers for the 2011 CYCC could someone please advise how many qualifiers, where and when they will take place and how many from each qualifier will go to the CYCC. Will someone be able to travel to different qualifiers, outside of city or province, if they desire and where will out of country canadian citizens, eligible to play in CYCC, go to qualify. These are some of the questions that have been asked of me recently.
If, in fact, the qualifiers are waived, as was done in 2010, the $4,000 savings could be mitigated by the number of CYCC participants who would play in the Canadian Open if they weren't at the same time. I estimate there were over 20 entrants in the CO who also played in the CYCC - can someone do the exact calculation - @ $175 entry fee is roughly the $4,000. Therefore, if the assumption is that if tournaments are at the same time, players may only play in one of them, the savings in the hall is offset by the loss of registrations.
But now the situation has changed. CYCC does not need to be saved anymore because there is another bid.
So, let’s just go back to the traditional schedule.
Sincerely,
Victor Itkine.
If you're so concerned about the CYCC and the CO is your name on the bid for both events?
My understanding is that the infrastructure for qualifying tournaments is not in place. There are a very few areas of the country where there is enthusiasm for this idea but many more where organizers are saying that they won't support it. Why would an organizer organize such a tournament if holding a tournament will limit opportunities for players in his area to participate in the CYCC?
I know the theory of holding qualifying tournaments is that it will help the CFC raise more money which can be used towards sending teams and coaches to the WYCC. I think that you are probably playing a zero sum game here. I also think that if you shrink the CYCC it is not a change for the better.
If in fact there will be qualifiers for the 2011 CYCC could someone please advise how many qualifiers, where and when they will take place and how many from each qualifier will go to the CYCC. Will someone be able to travel to different qualifiers, outside of city or province, if they desire and where will out of country canadian citizens, eligible to play in CYCC, go to qualify. These are some of the questions that have been asked of me recently.
Pretty much everyone agrees that an inexperienced player should not play in a national championship as their first tournament.
As far as I know, the Youth Committee was formed in late summer of 2009, in response to the new Nadeau-Lavin qualifier rules. The YC has (or had) no power, and was purely advisory. Its purpose at the time was to set up a structure for the qualifying tournaments.
I raised the question: suppose that a bunch of Toronto kids, having failed to qualify in "their" tournament, came to Windsor for the weekend, and scooped "our" qualifier places. Can we hold a second qualifying event? How about if a chess-parent had a "qualifying tournament" in their basement, three players, double RR, and of course, the first three finishers qualify. Is that okay?
Unfortunately, there was VERY little participation in the committee, some "members" made no comments at all. Discussion came to an end when Michael Barron declared that, essentially, the rules were, there were no rules... anyone could hold a qualifier, anyone could play in any qualifier, and there was no limit of any kind on how many tournaments could be held, or what the conditions were.
I don't know if that answers your questions, Gary. As far as I know, no further work has been done on setting up a qualifier system.
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