2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

John, possibly what's needed is more than one tournament on long weekends. Probably pricing would have to be more competitive.

It seems to me that all tournaments would just lose money if you split entries between one or more tournaments on the same weekend. I applaud the organizers of this event and look forward to seeing the venue which reportedly has improved lighting from the last time I played there a year ago. I found the main hall was not bright enough when I played there at the Ontario Open in May of last year. The room that the top section played in the 2010 Labour Day tournament was well lit. I'm looking forward to it.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

Looks like a well organized tournament, and securing that hotel is good. It's the cheap mentality that many chess players have that helps contribute to why chess is so far behind other sports and also poker. Take a reasonable entry fee and then divide by maybe three and you'll get what a chess player is expecting.

Perhaps some players expect that but I wouldn't say that they form a majority of the players who play in tournaments. Personally I like to play some strong players such as yourself (usually one per tournament, two if I am very lucky) with very little expectation of winning a prize in the tournament. I also like to play players who are fairly close to me in rating (maybe three hundred points on the low end and three or six hundred on the high end). Tournaments where I am going to play lots of lower rated players are a huge turn off because I don't measure success in terms of how much money I won as the expenses of the tournament will wipe the prize money out anyway but rather who and how I played and what I learned.

I also find that I don't mind playing lower rated players when they are some of the old guard who want to look at the games afterwards and are into chess tournaments for the social aspect. Playing a 1600 player who was dismissive about why they lost and didn't want to look at the game afterwards just doubly reinforces my intention of trying to avoid tournaments where I have to play them.

If I ever manage to get my regular CFC/USCF tournament participation down under 100 tournament games per year I may try to go a year without playing in any regular rated tournament where I play anyone under 1800 with minor exceptions for juniors that I am involved in training.

[John Brown]

Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

Ahem. Apparently you don't realize we're getting the Westin Harbour Castle at roughly a tenth the cost of the usual rent (due to hosting the Canadian Open there), not to mention the very generous non-market rate we get for the 918 site.

Your quote in translation =



Fixed.



Why are you talking such tripe?



Good for you. Why don't you just keep your opinions to yourself. We're working really hard to bring a classy event and all you can do is spend hours whining and complaining about it on ChessTalk. It's sad chess has so many cheapskates like you. Maybe if you got a full-time job you wouldn't think twice about the entry fee. You've been playing chess for centuries and you're still at the wrong end of the Class C section. Maybe if you spent as much energy at trying to improve your game as criticizing us you'd actually climb a section. No remarks on the abundance of free food and coffee we're supplying and the ipod giveaways among the many nice incentives we're offering etc.. Believe me when I say we're making zero profit on this tourney. It's a pity you're so blind to the facts.

HI Hugh When did I say I was not coming to the event.
I am only passing on the questions of others who do not have access to chess talk. As I said I've been coming to Toronto Labour Days for over 30 years and to tell you the truth the Bathurst site was the worst one I've ever played at.Lighting was the poorest, No Air conditioning in Ontario Open, Kids running in between rooms. Players passing on moves to others .If you guys have improved all these things then maybe others will jump along.
I stated that I feel it will be a flop now it is up to the masses to prove me wrong.

I'm not cheap as you may think. I unfortunately support chess and donate many books, cash , I give away FREE Memberships for Junior and Adult Memberships to the CFC Which you have witnessed at Niagara Falls Opens that you have attended. I also run tournaments at a loss and give 100% of entries less rating fees to players who play in my tournaments.
I have had two Master events in my apartment and I actually asked you Hugh to play in a Team event and I think you had to work. Yes Bingo is great I once won $200 for a BINGO . But reality is I like chess better.
The wheels turn because there is grease on the wheels. This Labour Day Open needs more blood than grease. So bleed with your loses I will see how much is actually paid out.
Weston Hotel had poor lighting as well so is that an upgrade to larger place?
I also have people billet at my place when we attend tournaments. I also support Book dealers at chess sites by buying equipment, books . I even offer to help players who are new to tournaments in some locations by offering a friendly smile and a hand in warm welcome.
Now do you have anymore Tripe to ask me?

[John Brown]

Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

John, let me paint a picture. If top juniors only played in the decent amateur options they have, they'd all be dominating scholastic active events for years on end, possibly playing some online chess, maybe attending some CYCC events. Meanwhile, many CFC regular weekend events would have much poorer attendance, and in my opinion dwindle even more due to a lack of energy and vitality. The juniors themselves would not progress as well; this would particularily hurt those that are interested in regular time controls, something the CMA rarely offers. There would also be far less FIDE titled players in Canada moving forward. Eventually, most open sections at Canadian events would be simply recent imports or visiting players.

In reality, the current system depends heavily on juniors whose families are willing to pay outrageous sums of money for chess events and services. To pretend though that there are not prices being paid in terms of participation and success levels of juniors is not wise.

Hi Duncan ;
In reality the current situation actually depends on players paying an entry fee. You do not have to be a junior to support chess. What I have heard from many is that the Organizers are asking too much for entries just to take it away and give it to the top sections and if there are any more shortfalls then the lower groups have their prizes reduced. So why not go back to the System where anyone can play in the open section at a set entry fee say $100 for an ie and then if you want to play in the U2000 the entry fee is $70 and your prize fund will be 70% of the OPen and the U1600 will have an entry fee of say $50 and the Prize fund will be 50% of the Open prize fund. Do you think that more people would not play if this structure was used?
Juniors and Seniors can get their 20% discount but they can only win 20% of the Open Prize fund.
I don't mind Kids coming but I think the Teachers and coaches alike can do two things.
#1 teach them the moves first then teach them #2 Chess Ediquitte ( spelling may be wrong don't have a dictionary handy.)
I like your Idea of Amateur Fees but I do not feel that these amateurs should play with the paying players. Too many spoilers as I call them stop paying players winning a key game that may give them a prize. If you want amateur fees then play in an Open amateur section with class prizes ie trophies.
Now that would make more participation and some take backs for Organizers.

[John Brown]

Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

Hi Alice,

I also don't really understand why there's a complaint in regards to the start times on Sunday. And for all we know Monday being a holiday, subway might just start at 9am too. The important thing is that on Saturday, it (the subway) starts at 6am, the one day that people may need to get there quite earlier to register, for example. Hart House tournaments were always starting at 10am, and I believe many others in Toronto have too. I don't really recall complaints. If anything, there were a couple of people from out of town who would have liked rounds on the last day to start earlier so that they could drive back and arrive home the same day. 10 am makes perfect sense, and so does consistency between days.

White Rabbit

The White Knight will speak Sir.
In 30 years I have never seen the Subway closed on the Labour Day Monday.
It opens bright and early 5 am I believe.

The idea of starting at 10:30 am or 11am is to give everyone an opportunity to relax for the third round game. I have seen many a player lose their game because of the rushed hour due to the 10am start. In fact I have won at least 3 games on time due to that very reason.
But hey what does 30 years of playing at Labour Day Opens got to do with new Organizers. Do what you do I have to play chess not listen to the complaining players who come late, that's the organizers nightmare, complaining players. Boy I 'm glad I'll be a player in this event.

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

World Open entry fees this year ranged from $325 to $350. Prizes in each of the U2400, U2200, U2000, U1800, and U1600 sections were (in thousands of $):

18, 9, 5, 2.5, 1.3, 1, 0.9, 0.8, 0.6, 0.5, and class prizes of 2 and 1. (10 place prizes and 2 class prizes)

The U1300 prizes were a couple of hundred dollars less; Open section prizes were: 25, 12, 6, 3, 1.5, 1.2, 1.0, 0.8, 0.6, 0.5; class prizes of 2 and 1.

Only discounts were $100 for seniors. None for juniors or titled players (in the past, I believe that GM's got at least their entry fee back after completing all games). No equipment supplied - not even boards.

[John Brown]

Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

World Open entry fees this year ranged from $325 to $350. Prizes in each of the U2400, U2200, U2000, U1800, and U1600 sections were (in thousands of $):

18, 9, 5, 2.5, 1.3, 1, 0.9, 0.8, 0.6, 0.5, and class prizes of 2 and 1. (10 place prizes and 2 class prizes)

The U1300 prizes were a couple of hundred dollars less; Open section prizes were: 25, 12, 6, 3, 1.5, 1.2, 1.0, 0.8, 0.6, 0.5; class prizes of 2 and 1.

Only discounts were $100 for seniors. None for juniors or titled players (in the past, I believe that GM's got at least their entry fee back after completing all games). No equipment supplied - not even boards.

Thanks Hugh;

I don't really like playing on plastic sets. I liked it when I could use my wood set and play with the idea that I was playing back in the days when wood was the standard and plastic was for kids.
If My opponent this year would like to play with wood? My set will be in my back pack.

[John Brown]

Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

I have never tried to set up a poll on chess talk.
So if any of you pollers want to do it for me I'd be great full.
The poll would ask these Questions.
#1 Should Labour Day Open have different Entry Fees for Different sections with a percentage that is equal to Open Prizes?
#2 Should there be just one big open with the top 20-30 winning all the prizes?
#3 I'm not playing because entry fee is too high verses prize fund return.

Or you can just reply here ;-).

[Roger Patterson]

Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

I have never tried to set up a poll on chess talk.
So if any of you pollers want to do it for me I'd be great full.
The poll would ask these Questions.
#1 Should Labour Day Open have different Entry Fees for Different sections with a percentage that is equal to Open Prizes?
#2 Should there be just one big open with the top 20-30 winning all the prizes?
#3 I'm not playing because entry fee is too high verses prize fund return.

Or you can just reply here ;-).

while it might be interesting for tournaments in general to ask such a question, for the Toronto Labour Day, as the terms are set and you are not the organizer, it is pointless.

You are operating from the premise that there is one magic formula for entry fees and prize money distribution and tournament surroundings that is the one and only way to run a tournament and any organizer who deviates from it is stupid, ignorant, greedy, or some other equally pejorative quality.

Your goals may not be theirs and just because not everyone wants to buy or can afford a Lambourghini (sp?) doesn't mean there isn't a market for it or that everyone wants a Lada (if they still make those).

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

a Lada (if they still make those).

It is still in a production and even new models are developed :)

[John Brown]

Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

while it might be interesting for tournaments in general to ask such a question, for the Toronto Labour Day, as the terms are set and you are not the organizer, it is pointless.

You are operating from the premise that there is one magic formula for entry fees and prize money distribution and tournament surroundings that is the one and only way to run a tournament and any organizer who deviates from it is stupid, ignorant, greedy, or some other equally pejorative quality.

Your goals may not be theirs and just because not everyone wants to buy or can afford a Lambourghini (sp?) doesn't mean there isn't a market for it or that everyone wants a Lada (if they still make those).

Hi Roger ;
I don't give a rats tail what they do at Labour Day.
I'd like to know what people feel is a fair assessment of what we decide as a norm. ie change the frigging CFC Handbook to relate to real life people not what is the choice of the day.

If you want players to come back to chess and play and join the CFC, you gotta set a standard that will give elite players a good prize fund and the others an affordable entry whether large or small that our numbers will increase not go down.
The way the structure is now the new organizers are driving diehards and ordinary players away from their events.
We have to smell the roses now because S*** ain't the sweetest smell in the world.
But if we gotta eat it then let's hope we can wash it down with a beer or two.

[John Brown]

Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

You need to chill a bit on the personal attacks. Not everyone is going to like the arrangements - get over it.

HI Kerry;
I gave up on Children a long time ago. Then I started respecting Adults.
Hugh Will grow from being an Organizer. Maybe with a little slack from us old fogies he will mature. He does have potential though. Wonder how Mark Dutton did at Annex Chess Club????

[John Brown]

Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

HI Hugh When did I say I was not coming to the event.
I am only passing on the questions of others who do not have access to chess talk. As I said I've been coming to Toronto Labour Days for over 30 years and to tell you the truth the Bathurst site was the worst one I've ever played at.Lighting was the poorest, No Air conditioning in Ontario Open, Kids running in between rooms. Players passing on moves to others .If you guys have improved all these things then maybe others will jump along.
I stated that I feel it will be a flop now it is up to the masses to prove me wrong.

I'm not cheap as you may think. I unfortunately support chess and donate many books, cash , I give away FREE Memberships for Junior and Adult Memberships to the CFC Which you have witnessed at Niagara Falls Opens that you have attended. I also run tournaments at a loss and give 100% of entries less rating fees to players who play in my tournaments.
I have had two Master events in my apartment and I actually asked you Hugh to play in a Team event and I think you had to work. Yes Bingo is great I once won $200 for a BINGO . But reality is I like chess better.
The wheels turn because there is grease on the wheels. This Labour Day Open needs more blood than grease. So bleed with your loses I will see how much is actually paid out.
Weston Hotel had poor lighting as well so is that an upgrade to larger place?
I also have people billet at my place when we attend tournaments. I also support Book dealers at chess sites by buying equipment, books . I even offer to help players who are new to tournaments in some locations by offering a friendly smile and a hand in warm welcome.
Now do you have anymore Tripe to ask me?

A proposal to Marcus and Hugh Siddley:
I'll make you both a bet. I believe you won't crack 150 players at Labour Day.
If I lose you get 2 beers each on me at Madisons I like their BEER.
If I win you gotta buy me 4 Beers each.
You game ?
I never back down on a Bet. So my word is my promise.
But you have to sit through me showing my wins and loses at Labour day with your analysis as a seal of approval.

[John Erickson]

Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

Hi Hugh:

I do work full time and am finding the entry fees for this tournament a little high. I live in Niagara Falls and do have an option with regards to a place to stay. Not everyone has that option. Without that option, I am looking to spend about 3 days of pay to play in the tournament. I'm not being a cheapskate by saying this. I just would like value for my money and wish that I could care less what the entry fee was or what any of the prize fund was.

I would like players, who make up the majority of the CFC, get a fair shake. Most tournaments seem to cater to the higher rated players. I have never paid to play in a tournament because so and so was playing. I play because I like the competition and the comraderie that comes from playing. I don't expect to win money, but like the idea that I have a shot. I play many lotteries and buy tickets based on what the prize is. If I like the prizes, I will buy a ticket, if I don't, I don't.

Remember one thing: If you don't cater to all the players, eventually you will only have the ones you do.

Take care and maybe I will be at the Labour Day tournament.

John Erickson
Niagara Falls

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now

I don't have a horse in this race, so this isn't a comment about this particular tournament but rather tournaments in general.

An alternative to tournaments that are divided by rating is to divide them by entry fee. For example:

Let's say your expenses, both fixed and variable plus any profit if you want it, work out to $X/player (based on whatever number of players you expect).

Have multiple sections. So, for example:

- The $3X section.
- The $1.5X section.
- The $X section.

In the $X section you get: a series of opponents, CFC-approved pairings, a place to play, maybe some extras like water, scoresheets, rated games but that's it.

In the $1.5X section you get the same as above plus some modest trophies or book prizes or the like.

In the $3X section you get cash instead of trophies.

Anyone can enter any section. Prizes only go to the top finishers in each of the last two sections.

I would imagine $X could vary for reasonably large events in major cities and might range anywhere from $20-$40/player. So if $X were say $30, then your EFs would be $30, $45, $90. If $X were lower, then you could make the multiples in the two prize sections higher to juice up the prizes.

In general the cash section is going to be by far the strongest one, but anyone can play in it ... if they pony up the cash to play.