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Dark Knight / Le Chevalier Noir
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The CFC pays annual fees to FIDE that have nothing to do with rated events or rating fees. What you are saying is that you want people to be able to get the benefits of Canada being a member of FIDE without contributing to the cost of maintaining those benefits?
What are these annual fees to FIDE exactly ? Would the CFC be happy with the FQE paying a per capita share of these (around 25%) in exchange to have normal access to FIDE ratings and a formula to recognize the FQE ratings (for national championships purposes) and give Quebec players equal chances ?
Anything is possible. The real question is: What is the benefit to the CFC to do this?
The question should be: what is the benefit for chess in Canada to do this? The CFC should be just a tool to move forward. It should not be the goal in itself. When chess is the goal answers are found much more easily.
The CFC pays annual fees to FIDE that have nothing to do with rated events or rating fees. What you are saying is that you want people to be able to get the benefits of Canada being a member of FIDE without contributing to the cost of maintaining those benefits?
I don't think he's arguing that the CFC should have no revenue stream.
I think a lot of people disagree with the primary manner in which it is generated.
In addition, people in Quebec get screwed in terms of FIDE, because the CFC has a disagreement with the FQE and from my point of view, one primarily about money.
As I see it, the CFC is running the risk of making themselves meaningless. The only thing they offer right now that cannot be duplicated is the affiliation with FIDE. I would think they would be doing all they can to make that even more pervasive, and thus increasing the need for their services.
Lastly, I don't think it's an unreasonable compromise to accept FQE FIDE events, don't rate them as CFC, and charge an extra $2 rating fee for the lack of affiliation. That way the CFC will get $5 just for submitting a player's result to FIDE. When that's multiplied by 10 players in a tourney, that's an extra $50, versus the $0 that the CFC is currently willing to accept (for not providing an easy service) out of pride.
I reserve the right to comment in response to an unprevoked insult which is not removed.
If you want on topic, here it is.
I never felt at the time in the 70's the Quebec organizers had very much interest in getting very involved with the CFC. The times were different politically (and I don't mean chess politically) and I felt they wanted to have their own organization and federation.
We, in correspondence chess, were fortunate Quebec was content to stay within the organization and were around a third of the membership.
It's a new day in Quebec :)
The young ones are a lot less "political" these days. A lot of the fights of the previous generation seems a bit pointless. Funny how the world works like that.
a) a fee that the opting out province would refuse to pay and then what?
or
b) a fee that individuals from opting out provinces would have to pay - so CFC membership in that province would not have full CFC membership priviliges. A discriminatory and not very satisfactory solution.
I for one would quite easily give up the rest of my CFC "privileges" in exchange for such an arrangement.
I think a fear the CFC would have is that a lot of provinces would choose this approach.
The fees wouldn't have to come from the federation either, they would be charged to the TD submitting the results.
Roger, the status quo is not fair to the rest of Canada. Do you have another proposal?
I think this is actually a pretty good point in itself. Outside of areas with a lot of CFC tournaments already, there is little incentive to join the CFC.
That makes (most of) Ontario fairly safe, probably BC and Alberta as well, and then scatterings in other provinces.
The CFC is doing nothing to create incentives for the spread of tournament chess, which is something I think should be the number 1 goal.
The CFC is seeming more and more like an organization concerned about maintaining the structure it has, then adapting for changing times.
" Quick Chess Rating System " - Promoting Chess to the Public!
Hi Denton:
I disagree.
The new " Quick Chess Rating System " the CFC Governors adopted at their 2012 Winter Meeting ( January 1 & following ) is specifically targetted to promoting chess to the public. The rating fee is 50 % of the normal one - $ 1.50. The tournament playing fee ( popularly called the " tournament membership " ) has the CFC portion of it cut in half - so new non-CFC players can get their feet wet on short game tournament chess for cheap!! This should be especially attractive to students, who have lower income generally. These are incentives to Canadian organizers across the country to get on the bandwagon and start organizing tournaments for the non-CFC public, not just for the well-healed CFC regular tournament players!!
The new " Quick Chess Rating System " the CFC Governors adopted at their 2012 Winter Meeting ( January 1 & following ) is specifically targetted to promoting chess to the public. The rating fee is 50 % of the normal one - $ 1.50. The tournament playing fee ( popularly called the " tournament membership " ) has the CFC portion of it cut in half - so new non-CFC players can get their feet wet on short game tournament chess for cheap!! This should be especially attractive to students, who have lower income generally. These are incentives to Canadian organizers across the country to get on the bandwagon and start organizing tournaments for the non-CFC public, not just for the well-healed CFC regular tournament players!!
Bob
I do appreciate the effort, so I'll give some credit for this. I still have a problem with the membership fee being cut in half...to $10+$1.50 rating fee = $11.50 to the CFC to play in a quick chess tournament. The problem then is that you're offering someone the chance to have a rating tracked by the CFC for quick chess...for $11.50 each time (let's say someone only does this 3 times a year). All that for a rating which most players don't respect (according to the other thread, started by John).
I'm running somewhat off topic here. I think now that I'm an FQE and CFC member, with my primary concern being to play FIDE games, I'd like to see some accommodation made between the CFC and FQE to allow FQE games to be FIDE rated.
One question for you though Bob. Knowing that you don't speak for the CFC (does anyone?), what would you consider to be a fair accommodation for such situations? (ruling out 'just get everyone to join the CFC').
I mean such as: "I think it would be fair for the CFC to rate FQE tournaments if..."
The problem then is that you're offering someone the chance to have a rating tracked by the CFC for quick chess...for $11.50 each time (let's say someone only does this 3 times a year). All that for a rating which most players don't respect (according to the other thread, started by John).
Hi Denton:
Playing 3 tournaments at these rates is cheaper than an annual CFC membership, and includes the rating fee. Pretty reasonable deal I think. And the " Quick Chess Ratings " will soon much outstrip the old " active " ratings in terms of " Respect ". It will become a valued rating, like the regular rating.
One question for you though Bob. Knowing that you don't speak for the CFC (does anyone?), what would you consider to be a fair accommodation for such situations? (ruling out 'just get everyone to join the CFC').
I mean such as: "I think it would be fair for the CFC to rate FQE tournaments if..."
I'm not familiar with the past history, nor the territory currently being protected by both sides. But I think a " FIDE Tournament " conference should be called jointly by CFC/FQE to explore ideas on cooperation with the CFC & FQE membership. I know this would be tricky, but I see no reason why it could not be done as a virtual conference open to the public, handled the same as the CFC Governors' On-line Meetings. But someone else will have to take the initiative on this - my plate is currently full.
I think now that I'm an FQE and CFC member, with my primary concern being to play FIDE games, I'd like to see some accommodation made between the CFC and FQE to allow FQE games to be FIDE rated.
That's all what FQE members want, and I'm pretty sure it's the also same thing for the FQE. From what I know, they tried to meet and to reach an arrangment with the CFC several times in the past. If the FQE could manage to offer more money to the CFC than what it actually makes (through memberships, rating fees or compensation), why not allow us to FIDE rate our tournaments? I know there's always the hope for CFC to make even more money, or an old grudge between some people, but there are two federations and we need to deal with it.
More FIDE rated games would definitely be profitable for both federations.
It's a Membership Responsibility - Ownership of the Issue?
Hi Felix:
I think you highlight my concern about FIDE Rated tournaments in Canada and Quebec.
The two organizations are at odds, and the membership of each is suffering.
It is clear to me that negotiations between the two administrative structures has reached an impasse.
The membership of each have to bring both to heel, and tell them what the membership wants them jointly to do!
They can do this at a virtual conference on-line, where the executive of each have to come to the forefront, in front of the membership of each organization jointly, and take their lumps, and be told how to get on with solving this impasse.
Member/players should get FIDE rated tournaments. No excuses!
It's a new day in Quebec :)
The young ones are a lot less "political" these days. A lot of the fights of the previous generation seems a bit pointless. Funny how the world works like that.
Either I don't understand Quebec these days or you don't understand Quebec.
Roger, the status quo is not fair to the rest of Canada. Do you have another proposal?
yeah - suck it up and deal with it.
as to "fair", that is something that depends on one's point of view which is frequently one sided.
I'm pretty sure that if FIDE came and said "we now have a FIDE membership and EVERY CFC member down to the last junior rated 200 must pay our annual membership fee or we will cut you off international events" that many people would not call that "fair". Notwithstanding FIDE saying, "Oh, but Canada must pay it's fair share of the world championship".
We don't need to use Quebec as an example. I know there are lots of people who feel that the CMA is somehow in "competition" with the CFC and it is "unfair" that the CFC isn't getting a cut of all junior activity. Vlad runs active events with his own rating system as do I, as does Luc Poitras and that includes non CFC members playing chess. Horrors.
Come to terms with the fact that the CFC does not have a monopoly on chess in Canada. It neither has the moral right nor the practical ability to enforce a monopoly.
As a side note, before the CFC became obsessed with the idea of "fairness" in collecting from every last FQE member, about 30-50% of Quebec chess players were also CFC members. Top sections of all tournaments were CFC rated. Now, with enforcing "fairness" we have something like less than 5% of those as CFC members and no CFC activity and correspondingly less revenue. As a purely practical matter, apart from it's moral questionability, demanding "fairness" has been a complete failure for the last 30 years.
I ask because I wasn't around then (not in any meaningful chess way).
I don't know the history, and it's always good to know such things.
Any of our esteemed elders know the story?
Denton
there is (was) only one reason: MONEY
FQE get money and free services from the Quebec Government.
In return, they must spend that money following some guidelines.
Also, FQE must have a good membership.
So FQE must sell it own membership cards.
When it came to sell CFC membership in Quebec.....
Players will ask... what do we get for our money...
almost nothing
but it is true that some people send money to different organisations
without expecting anything in return....
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