SHOGI (Try it)

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: SHOGI (Try it)

Bullcrap. What a sore loser you are. My original idea as a whole is unlike Shogi in too many ways to mention. I never said or implied that the idea of resurrecting a piece was my original idea.

Wow such language.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: SHOGI (Try it)

Wow such language.

I think you have to look at his post as a hole.

[Portella]

Re: SHOGI (Try it)

My question to those promoting Shogi is: What are the benefits to taking it on? Is it a better game? Also, why don't we put our effort into promoting and growing Chess which is already widely available, familiar, and part of our culture (just look at how many times Chess is featured in film, advertising, etc).

My intention posting the promotion here isn't to establish a discussion of which game is better, so that all I can tell is that FOR ME Shogi is a much more interesting game.

There are some reasons that Shogi players use to state, like the rarity of draws and better balance between both sides, which aren't very important to me. I don't really dislike draws, for instance. Yet, others make Shogi feel more what I wanted chess to be: games seem more varied, even if you always play the same opening; a "come back" from a disadvantageous position is much more likely than in chess, which means that in Shogi it is more probable that the game will be played to the end, since a bad mate sequence - which always involve sacrifices in order to break through the multiple existing castle types - will transition to a chance of a counter attack, if positions aren't very unequal; and, most important, chess problems (like those used in chess as exercises), which I really like to solve, is always a very important part of the game... a lot of end games will feel like mate puzzles... and a lot of them will involve both players struggling for mate, at least if players have a similar level.

That are my reasons. Additionally, Shogi has a much more intelligent time limit method, which works well for long games and for fast games or blitz.

The fact is that the game has been growing. It's not infrequent to have tourney's schedules posted in the forums... mostly in Europe, it's true, but in some years, who knows? Online play doesn't subtitute OTB, it's true, but it's a way to introduce people to it, in order to promote OTB tourneys in the future, like what already happens in some places in Europe.

[Andrew Hoyer]

Re: SHOGI (Try it)

That are my reasons. Additionally, Shogi has a much more intelligent time limit method, which works well for long games and for fast games or blitz.

What is the difference in time controls, and why can't it be applied to Chess if it's a better system?

[Portella]

Re: SHOGI (Try it)

What is the difference in time controls, and why can't it be applied to Chess if it's a better system?

Well, it can, but I'm sure it won't. People tend to be extremely conservative with this kind of thing.

In Shogi you have your available alloted time, let's say 15 minutes, for a fast game. After you're done with those 15 minutes, you have what they call Byoyomi, which is a time limit per move, which doesn't add to your next move if you don't use it, i.e. you have precisely 30 seconds, for instance, for every move. That means that you have enough time (relative to the time control you're playing) to play a consistent opening and middle game (middle game can be very challenging), but then the game becomes very dynamic and errors in that phase may give rise to a counter attack, causing the game to become very disputed, but avoiding a decision based on clock.

Additionally, even with a faster rhythm, players don't have to rush in order to save time for subsequent moves. That makes the game dynamic without forcing huge blunders or wins on time.

[Jean Hébert]

Re : Re: SHOGI (Try it)

Well, it can, but I'm sure it won't. People tend to be extremely conservative with this kind of thing.

In Shogi you have your available alloted time, let's say 15 minutes, for a fast game. After you're done with those 15 minutes, you have what they call Byoyomi, which is a time limit per move, which doesn't add to your next move if you don't use it, i.e. you have precisely 30 seconds, for instance, for every move. That means that you have enough time (relative to the time control you're playing) to play a consistent opening and middle game (middle game can be very challenging), but then the game becomes very dynamic and errors in that phase may give rise to a counter attack, causing the game to become very disputed, but avoiding a decision based on clock.

Additionally, even with a faster rhythm, players don't have to rush in order to save time for subsequent moves. That makes the game dynamic without forcing huge blunders or wins on time.

I don't see how this time management formula could be seen as superior than our way, especially with incrementation. I used to play Go which also uses this byoyomi concept. It is better than sudden death but not better than incrementation and its infinite flexibility. Also in my opinion having an amount of time that does not carry over for the next moves if you don't use it is definitely a weakness, not a strenght. Players should be able to manage their time, using less or more of it at their will.
Personally I would not pretend that chess is in itself superior to other similar board games. They are all fascinating games to be sure. It is just that in North America and in most parts of the world, it is way easier to find playing partners for chess than for shogi, chinese chess and Go combined. If all these games are great, one might as well chose the one in which he can find a rich life near from home. But if for some reason I would have to give up chess and find consolation in another board game, taking up Go again would certainly not be unpleasant.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: SHOGI (Try it)

The fact is that the game has been growing. It's not infrequent to have tourney's schedules posted in the forums... mostly in Europe, it's true, but in some years, who knows? Online play doesn't subtitute OTB, it's true, but it's a way to introduce people to it, in order to promote OTB tourneys in the future, like what already happens in some places in Europe.

Interesting reflections but dang you mentioned Europe. There are some Euro haters on here so be careful. :D:(

The best way to promote Shogi at the beginning may be to have a regular meeting with interested people at a coffee shop or the like. I think most of us when considering some time devoted to a new game would want to do so in person. I for example have also gone down to Chinatown in Toronto to get the occasional Xiangqi game. I'm not sure what happens with those 40 sets Larry sells each year but there seems to be a pent up demand of people with sets out there.

[Kerry Liles]

Re: SHOGI (Try it)

I'm not sure what happens with those 40 sets Larry sells each year but there seems to be a pent up demand of people with sets out there.

One other possibility is that they were gifts that will likely end up in a closet...
sort of like those elaborate Civil War or Star Wars chess sets - too hard to dust (and of course useless as chess sets), so off to the closet they go.

[Portella]

Re: Re : Re: SHOGI (Try it)

I don't see how this time management formula could be seen as superior than our way, especially with incrementation. I used to play Go which also uses this byoyomi concept. It is better than sudden death but not better than incrementation and its infinite flexibility. Also in my opinion having an amount of time that does not carry over for the next moves if you don't use it is definitely a weakness, not a strenght. Players should be able to manage their time, using less or more of it at their will.
Personally I would not pretend that chess is in itself superior to other similar board games. They are all fascinating games to be sure. It is just that in North America and in most parts of the world, it is way easier to find playing partners for chess than for shogi, chinese chess and Go combined. If all these games are great, one might as well chose the one in which he can find a rich life near from home. But if for some reason I would have to give up chess and find consolation in another board game, taking up Go again would certainly not be unpleasant.

In the beginning I thought exactly this way. I was used to managing my time and found it annoying to do it otherwise. Yet, after a while I began to understand the benefits. Today, with chess being played more and more frequently under very fast time controls, even with increments, time pressure tends to force very poor play. I'm not a great player, but I'm amused at seeing people classifying as great games those games that don't bring any new ideas, being based on very basic patterns, the only advantage being that they were played fast. The clock is becoming the greates opponent. This is somehow attenuated by the byoyomi system, since, even with blitz, one will not rush to keep precious seconds. You still have to manage your initial time and it's always a disadvantage to enter the byoyomi stage before your opponent. But that's just my opinion.

As for the number of opponents available, sure you won't find as many as with chess, in the west, but I'm happy with online play and I even play over the board using a camera, it's not exactly like being present in the same room, but it's a nice experience. For me, the differences between both games make it worth, but I'm not advocating that people should give up on chess. Give it a try, like you did with Go and, if you get hooked, ok, if not, just leave it. It's that easy... and real time investment will only come later. I just tried to show that kanjis don't make it difficult, but I think I'll have to change my approach.

[Portella]

Re: SHOGI (Try it)

One other possibility is that they were gifts that will likely end up in a closet...
sort of like those elaborate Civil War or Star Wars chess sets - too hard to dust (and of course useless as chess sets), so off to the closet they go.

It may end in the closet, like a stauton chess set may end too. Unlike Civil War or Star Wars chess sets, which have some appeal in western countries, even for those who don't play the game, a Shogi set would be a terrible gift for someone who didn't show any previous interest in the game.

[Portella]

Re: SHOGI (Try it)

http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/53...72#item1257672

The article quoted in this site can be useful for some objective comparison between the most popular forms of "chess". Notice that I don't necessarily agree with the criterion (impressions seems a better word here) used to classify those games as being better or worse, but the comparison of some aspects that seem important to some, like numbers of draws or intensity of memorization in openings, etc, may interest some people.

Chu Shogi, btw, is a game which I'm curious about; I just don't know if it is manageable. Yet, those few I have known who play it use to praise it as the highest experience they have with a chess like game... at least those who were able to come to the point of playing it without refering to moves charts. Did someone here try it?

[Alan Baljeu]

Re: SHOGI (Try it)

I played Chu Shogi in an email match. It's interesting but the pace is too slow. When a game lasts 150 moves, one turn per day is a long game. However over a board it would be another experience entirely. There are a handful of powerful pieces and a ton of weaker ones whose movement is a subset of the king's. So there would be a tendency to play a lot of moves quickly as it's just manoevering the bitplayers into the battlefield.

My experience as a tactical chess player though is to manoeuver to get the rooks and bishops and minors into position to launch a sacrificial attack into the heart of the opponent's field, promoting the rook or bishop to a dragon of some sort. The trouble is, this tactic depends crucially on knowing what every minor piece represents in your opponent's field. Which means until you learn all 40 distinct piece types you are constantly consulting the reference manual.
This would be much easier if pieces had idiomatic pictures like
\|/
.| so you could see at a glance how a tiger moves.

[Portella]

Re: SHOGI (Try it)

I played Chu Shogi in an email match. It's interesting but the pace is too slow. When a game lasts 150 moves, one turn per day is a long game. However over a board it would be another experience entirely. There are a handful of powerful pieces and a ton of weaker ones whose movement is a subset of the king's. So there would be a tendency to play a lot of moves quickly as it's just manoevering the bitplayers into the battlefield.

My experience as a tactical chess player though is to manoeuver to get the rooks and bishops and minors into position to launch a sacrificial attack into the heart of the opponent's field, promoting the rook or bishop to a dragon of some sort. The trouble is, this tactic depends crucially on knowing what every minor piece represents in your opponent's field. Which means until you learn all 40 distinct piece types you are constantly consulting the reference manual.
This would be much easier if pieces had idiomatic pictures like
\|/
.| so you could see at a glance how a tiger moves.

Hi Alan. What I think is that such bigger games will only work with with restrict time limits and byoyomi system (managing a large "initial time limit" with such a big game would be troublesome, I imagine), since it would force plauyers to manouver what you called bitplayers without much delay, but then, one really has to know the moves by heart.

Playing by e-mail will seem more like an intellectual experience to think about the characteristics of the system or learning it.

I have read through a review in which the guy said it took him no more than two hours, more or less, for each player, but then again, I think he really must know the moves instinctively and be able to read the board quickly. I imagine that, in this case, it must be a very nice experience.

[Alan Baljeu]

Re: SHOGI (Try it)

You do need to know the pieces, but the game develops slowly so you can kind of study the position as you go, even reviewing the move listings. I mean each turn only 1 piece moves out of like 60 on each team, and most moves only go one square so if you see a silver general at one place, he will tend to be there or nearby for a long time.

[Portella]

Re: SHOGI (Try it)

You do need to know the pieces, but the game develops slowly so you can kind of study the position as you go, even reviewing the move listings. I mean each turn only 1 piece moves out of like 60 on each team, and most moves only go one square so if you see a silver general at one place, he will tend to be there or nearby for a long time.

I agree that this will work for PBEM, but for games under time control, knowing the pieces will be essential, I think.

What I noticed is that promoted pieces are powerful, which mean that, probably, even if the game is more like western chess, due to the lack of drops, it won't be difficult to deliver a checkmate for the absence of pieces, like in chess. Ok, one will say that promoted pieces are powerful in chess, too, but promotion is a much more present feature in Shogi than it is in chess. In chess, promoting means almost always a win; in Shogi, pieces promote all the time.