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The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?
If a motion was brought to the CFC Governors' 2013 Winter ( Jan. 1/13 ) On-line Meeting that:
" CFC dismantle the infrastructure for the separate, parallel women's chess system in Canada "
it is my understanding from the posts here that the following 6 who have posted in this thread would support such motion:
Jack Maguire
Bindi Cheng
Aman Hambleton
Jean Hebert
Tom O'Donnell
Bob Armstrong
Let me know if I have misinterpreted any of your comments, and this is not the case.
There are a number of others in the other 15 whom I think may support such a motion, but I am hesitant to say they have taken a definite stand. If some of you also would support such a motion, then please let me know by posting such, so I can add your name to my list.
Finally, if you have viewed this thread with some interest, but not yet posted, and would support such a motion, would you also let me know by posting such. I will then add you to the list.
Sometimes, you just have to take a stand!
Thx.
Bob A
Your motion is not very precise. Maybe you should attach more precision to your motion to indicate which parts of the "parallel" system you mean. E.g. all or parts of the following:
That the cfc will not
A) send a women's Olympiad team
B) will not organize or recognize female sections of the cycc
C) will not organize or recognize a Canadian women's championship
D) will not rate or recognize female only events.
If that sounds appalling to you, and I hope it does, perhaps you should reconsider. It is what you are implying with your motion.
Re: Support for Motion to Abolish ? What It Includes.
Hi Roger:
All those except D are intended within my motion.
I believe if an organizer wants to organize an all-female event, and women want to play in it, there is nothing wrong with it being rated. What I want to eliminate is the official support of the CFC for the infrastructure that establishes the official separate system.
It does not sound appalling. The goal is to support an improving women's chess in Canada. As women win " open " tournaments in various classes, as they progress, this will be a role model for other women, to draw them into chess. Women will no longer be seen as needing an inferior incumbation system, implying they are somehow inferior to males in chess.
Bob A
Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Thursday, 8th November, 2012, 02:41 AM.
I believe if an organizer wants to organize an all-female event, and women want to play in it, there is nothing wrong with it being rated. What I want to eliminate is the official support of the CFC for the infrastructure that establishes the official separate system.
It does not sound appalling. The goal is to support an improving women's chess in Canada. As women win " open " tournaments in various classes, as they progress, this will be a role model for other women, to draw them into chess. Women will no longer be seen as needing an inferior incumbation system, implying they are somehow inferior to males in chess.
Bob A
Will you "allow" females to participate in FIDE female events? E. g. Have the cfc veto females who wish to play in the female sections of the WYCC or in the path to the women's world championship?
Will you "allow" females to participate in FIDE female events? E. g. Have the cfc veto females who wish to play in the female sections of the WYCC or in the path to the women's world championship?
Hi Roger:
As long as FIDE maintained a separate, parallel women's system, CFC would consent to any woman going to play in any female FIDE event that they would qualify for.
The whole point of the exercise is not to restrict the individual liberty of Canadian women/girl chess players, but to discourage participation in a separate women's system by taking away the formal infrastructure in Canada of that system.
But CFC would not authorize any formal " representative " to a female tournament.
So, for example, Canada would not take up the option of sending a woman to the Women's World Championship as Canadian Women's Champion, and without that, no Canadian women would be able to gain entry on their own personal initiative, into the Women's World Championship.
The CYCC would be a different matter re the female categories, because FIDE allows any girl junior to play who has consent of a national federation. They will pay all their own expenses, and will not be entitled to the " official " representative free board and lodging.
Bob A
Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Thursday, 8th November, 2012, 03:04 AM.
On poker night at the seniors club I've sat at the women table a couple of times. The guys took turns because there were too many for the mens table and too few for the womens. I don't expect any rush of men to play in womens events. :)
Actually, you're wrong. At the WSOP, there is a women's event, but under Nevada Gaming, they are not allowed to make a gender discriminated event. So, every year, some men play in it, under the (correct) belief that it's a much weaker field.
It seems that you and Kitich cannot understand much without smileys.
If youth be a defect, it is one that we outgrow only too soon.
-James Russell Lowell
Congratulations. All on your own you have discovered the limits to communication on the internet. You have also stumbled across why smiley's were invented in the first place. Or did you just think they were decorative?
Did you miss the If that started the quote you are quoting.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Thursday, 8th November, 2012, 04:33 AM.
I thought the skier was not allowed because she wanted to ski the women race as well and this would give her extra practice time and an unfair advantage.
On poker night at the seniors club I've sat at the women table a couple of times. The guys took turns because there were too many for the mens table and too few for the womens. I don't expect any rush of men to play in womens events. :)
Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?
obviously female-only events/titles are sexist and stupid but the vast majority of female chess players aren't opposed so whatever
and of course the female-only funding/prizes that exist as a consequence are unfair to men, but there are enough dumbass males involved in chess that i don't see the issue being resolved from that end any time soon
it doesn't help that a disproportionate percentage of the canadian chess community is of cultures which are ass-backwards in terms of the way they perceive women. i mean cmon, is anyone really surprised that three of this thread's most vocal supporters of pretending that women aren't as capable as men are named vlad, zeljko and egidijus?
everytime it hurts, it hurts just like the first (and then you cry till there's no more tears)
obviously female-only events/titles are sexist and stupid but the vast majority of female chess players aren't opposed so whatever
and of course the female-only funding/prizes that exist as a consequence are unfair to men, but there are enough dumbass males involved in chess that i don't see the issue being resolved from that end any time soon
it doesn't help that a disproportionate percentage of the canadian chess community is of cultures which are ass-backwards in terms of the way they perceive women. i mean cmon, is anyone really surprised that three of this thread's most vocal supporters of pretending that women aren't as capable as men are named vlad, zeljko and egidijus?
I am all in favour of 'pretending' that women are different than men. I am also perfectly willing to 'pretend' that there are not as many women as men playing in organized chess. I am quite able to 'pretend' that this is an undesirable situation that is to the detriment of overall chess activity and CFC membership in Canada.
I am however not willing to pretend that chess is unfair to men because there is a bit of funding out there for women's chess. I am also not willing to pretend that I am impressed by all the men on this board eager to jump on the eliminate women's chess bandwagon. What has women's chess done to you all that you are so eager to end it.
You might have a cogent argument if women were not allowed to enter open mixed gender events. Then your accusation that we don't think of women as capable might be somewhere near the target. As it is there is nothing preventing women and juniors of either gender from entering any mixed age/gender open event. This regardless of the age and gender specific tournaments also available to them. If we were making an argument that women are not as capable the first thing we would be arguing is that women be limited to women only events as in other sports. None of us is making that argument though. Quite the opposite in fact. It is your side lead by Bob Armstrong, who is trying to rally the governor's, that want to eliminate women's chess.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Thursday, 8th November, 2012, 05:21 AM.
Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?
it offends my sensibilities. i think of a young female entering the chess world and incorrectly believing that she and her female peers aren't capable of being as good or better than their male counterparts, that in this beautiful intellectual challenge that we all love she should be content with a lower level of mastery just because she's a girl, that rewards should come easier to her because her lesser accomplishments are "equivalent" to that of a boy, and it upsets me
it upsets me because i'm not stupid and i'm not a sexist, and i understand the danger of latent sexism, especially when it concerns children and their indoctrination. i guess you don't
everytime it hurts, it hurts just like the first (and then you cry till there's no more tears)
I am all in favour of 'pretending' that women are different than men. I am also perfectly willing to 'pretend' that there are not as many women as men playing in organized chess. I am quite able to 'pretend' that this is an undesirable situation that is to the detriment of overall chess activity and CFC membership in Canada.
I guess you're also in favour of pretending that having this women's program has done a single thing to create widespread female participation in chess. There's nothing wrong with using resources to cater to a niche market if the overall return is good; there is a big problem with using substantial resources to cater to a market that doesn't response.
it offends my sensibilities. i think of a young female entering the chess world and incorrectly believing that she and her female peers aren't capable of being as good or better than their male counterparts, that in this beautiful intellectual challenge that we all love she should be content with a lower level of mastery just because she's a girl, that rewards should come easier to her because her lesser accomplishments are "equivalent" to that of a boy, and it upsets me
it upsets me because i'm not stupid and i'm not a sexist, and i understand the danger of latent sexism, especially when it concerns children and their indoctrination. i guess you don't
I am pretty sure that your theoretical young female is able to see that women and men can both enter most of the tournaments being run and compete together. If she's getting a message of latent sexism it is undoubtedly from being made to compete only against girls in other sports by the school system. Perhaps you are so offended you should do something about this. Many junior programs do not segregate the girls from the boys. I know our YMCA program did not. Although I don't see any reason why Chess and Math should not do so at their tournaments. So to be clear are you calling for Chess and Math to eliminate gender specific tournament sections at their events?
The bigger sexist message your theoretical female is receiving is how few women participate in chess. In as much as the current system attempts to address this imbalance it is more useful in combating sexism than your attempting to eliminate it because you can't get your hands on the bit of funding on offer for women's events. On the basis that it discriminates against males.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Thursday, 8th November, 2012, 06:01 AM.
I guess you're also in favour of pretending that having this women's program has done a single thing to create widespread female participation in chess. There's nothing wrong with using resources to cater to a niche market if the overall return is good; there is a big problem with using substantial resources to cater to a market that doesn't response.
I guess you are in favour of pretending that this proposal of Bob's is a better solution to encourage female participation in chess.
Substantial resources? Really since when. Niche market? Is that all women are to you? In no way part of the mainstream of participants?
How are you measuring this return? I know how to measure ROI but I am cautious when applying it to human beings. The same argument of substantial resources could be made about junior chess. Given the large numbers that drop out after their junior years and don't participate in organized chess afterwards. Why are those funds not transferred to supporting full time adult professionals. There are lots of good reasons but I'd like to hear your reasons. However, any argument that this is so because junior chess has boosted adult chess participation in Canada is going to be questionable. Chess was bigger in Canada in the Fischer era than after all these years of junior chess promotion.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Thursday, 8th November, 2012, 07:00 AM.
Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?
I see no reason why women cannot play chess as well as men, or girls as well as boys.
But I do see a point in holding women's and girl's only events in some cases. For example, at a typical chess camp that we run here in Ottawa, we have about 20 boys and maybe 3 or 4 girls. But in one camp, we had several girls register early and so when I told this to female players and their parents it encouraged more girls to come to camp. We ended up with a total of 9 and ran a girls only section for them which they LOVED.
So, as a means to encourage more women and girls to play, women's and girl's only events do serve a purpose. Though in the strictest sense, I do not believe than anyone wants to argue that by nature men and boys play better chess than women and girls.
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