The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

[Felix Dumont]

Re : Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Youth is a decease? Disease? Sorry to hear about your unhappy childhood otherwise I can't imagine why you would think of youth as a disease.

It's a particular philosophy for a chess teacher....

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Hi Zeljko:

No problem with separate junior events - successive goals to strive for give motivation, and then they leave the junior system for good, into the " open, inclusive system " ( though not necessarily for the girl juniors, who can choose to play in the separate, parallel women's system ).

With the gender difference system, the argument is totally different. The women don't graduate - they just stay forever. They need to play in an open competitive system, where they play the best opposition possible: adult male; adult female; junior boy; junior girl. This will get women improving in chess, something the failed 1/2 century separate women's system has not done.

Bob A

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

As I've said elsewhere, it is the system that is here at fault, and failing women.

It is not a system. It is just a tournament for women. The system would involve much more parts: promoting, coaching, playing. China, Georgia may be examples.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Age is a temporary state and youth a decease that time cures easily. Youth events serves as milestones and preparation for adulthood in chess. But women events serve no such purpose. Women will remain women. Women's events just carry the idea that for some reason, women in chess are inferior to men, but nonetheless worthy of some special treatment as if permanently handicapped.

Youth is a decease? Disease? Sorry to hear about your unhappy childhood otherwise I can't imagine why you would think of youth as a disease.

Given the low percentage of youth that make the transition to adult chess as you call it the cure is not working with youth chess. We are just killing the patient. Especially if you use the same logic that Bob is applying to women's chess ie it is not producing enough high rated players. So then it is not good enough that a low percentage of juniors continue playing past the WYCC age criteria. To measure the success of youth programs you also need to produce high rated juniors en mass.

Women's events simply indicate that women are different than men. Junior only events also seem to suggest that boys and girls are different than men and women. It is not just some type of temporary quarantine.

I'm still waiting to see if Bob will clarify why he included comments in his preamble that suggest there should be no youth-older issue in chess. Why he wants to eliminate womens only chess and not junior only events. Especially given that junior chess can be argued to be 'failing' juniors if you apply his criteria of success to both.

[Jack Maguire]

Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

One of the things that is very motivating to me about the women's olympiad team is that we might someday place one or more of our Windsor girls on that team. If that ever happens, look out I could see Windsor chess taking off even more than it has.

I don't know which Olympiad you may be talking, Vlad, but I'll make a bold prediction and predict that Harmony Zhu, who'll be all of 8 at the time of the 2014 Olympiad in Norway, will have to get serious consideration for inclusion on the team. Imho, she'll be at least expert strength by that time.

[Duncan Smith]

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The CFC website seems to indicate otherwise. I don't see a single CYCC event after the age of 10.

And I know why. First couple of years they moved out of country, because they decided chess training would be better elsewhere. When they returned they decided the CYCC/WYCC event was unsuitable, not for gender reasons, but for financial reasons ( not good value in their opinion ).

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Are you sure? I don't think that you would use the same word for Toronto Closed which does not attract the (potentially) strongest Toronto field. The same thing about Canada Closed, Olympiad teams ;)

If " boycott " means an " active opposition to something ", then perhaps I have not used the correct word.

But my point is the same - the separate Toronto Women's Championship is accomplishing nothing for the advancement of women's chess in Toronto - the strongest Toronto women players have absolutely NO INTEREST in playing in it. So what is it supposed to be accomplishing?

GTCL couldn't even attract 8 women to play - it was intended to be an 8-player round robin, and they could only get 6 players. And of the 6, only 2 are women - the other 4 are all junior girls: http://annexchessclub.com/2012/10/2012-toronto-womens/ .

If this is a shining example of the success of the separate, parallel women's system in Canada, I think the system has to be declared on life-support. And I fully respect those who are playing in it and striving their best to win the title. As I've said elsewhere, it is the system that is here at fault, and failing women.

Bob A

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Any strong women players from Toronto have boycotted it.

Are you sure? I don't think that you would use the same word for Toronto Closed which does not attract the (potentially) strongest Toronto field. The same thing about Canada Closed, Olympiad teams ;)

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

And for those who claim that a good reason for abandoning the women's Olympiad team is that they are not strong enough, consistency demands that those people also demand that we not send the National team as it is not strong enough either to be a plausible contender.

That would sure save a lot of money. One of the things that is very motivating to me about the women's olympiad team is that we might someday place one or more of our Windsor girls on that team. If that ever happens, look out I could see Windsor chess taking off even more than it has.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Hi Vlad:

At the Scarborough CC we have no " junior club ". The juniors ( boys and girls ) compete in their appropriate rating sections ( in our case this is the U 1800 section and the U 1400 section; we used to have WIM Yuanling Yuan in the 1800+ section until she left the club, after winning the club championship ).

We have a number of girls playing in both the U 1800 and the U 1400, though they are still substantially outnumbered by the junior boys in those sections. We have no problem with the junior boys running the junior girls out of the club. As far as I can tell, the girls do not have a problem fully participating at the club, though I would say that generally the boys tend to not mix with the girls much. But they fully respect them, and especially over-the-board.

Our junior girls play well, and are all improving.

Why? Because they are playing in open sections, and playing the strongest opponents the pairing system can give them, adult female, adult male, junior boy or junior girl. They are spending their time playing the strongest opponents they can deserve. They are not playing weaker girl juniors to win some discounted prize.

Maybe some other SCC members have a different opinion - it would be good if you would join the debate.

Bob A - long-time SCC member

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Brilliant idea. Lets get rid of the few girls who are playing chess. We can really grow chess once all the distractions are removed.

We had nineteen people (eighteen kids and me) from Windsor and area playing in the Michigan International Chess Festival which featured half a dozen grandmasters and IM Irina Krush. We didn't quite have parity in numbers between boys and girls but it was quite close among the 18 children.

The main difference between the Windsor children's chess scene and the rest of Canada is that we manage to interest boys and girls in taking up chess in almost equal numbers. It is frankly quite stupid to begrudge girls an additional opportunity to play chess in a non-threatening environment. If you allow it the boys will chase the girls out - at least that's what I noticed in the beginners class.

[Jack Maguire]

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Yuanling Yuan played in the girls event in all her CYCC experiences and chose to make the women's Olympiad her main focus event over the last 3 years. She taught an "all girls" chess class and supported the local all girl's chess event.

Trying to use her as an example of the value of avoiding female only events is absurd.

The CFC website seems to indicate otherwise. I don't see a single CYCC event after the age of 10.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

no, just Karpov, Korchnoi, Kamsky, Ivanchuk ......

Of course I was joking with Kerry. With Bob talking about the most successful woman player in history, or however he put it, we're comparing over the centuries. It's arguable at best.

[Duncan Smith]

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Yet the fact remains that more than 1/2 their tournaments are girls only. Look at Yuanling Yuan's chess resume and I think you'll only find one girls tournament after the age of 10 (other than the 2 Olympiads of course).

Yuanling Yuan played in the girls event in all her CYCC experiences and chose to make the women's Olympiad her main focus event over the last 3 years. She taught an "all girls" chess class and supported the local all girl's chess event.

Trying to use her as an example of the value of avoiding female only events is absurd.

[Aman Hambleton]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

And for those who claim that a good reason for abandoning the women's Olympiad team is that they are not strong enough, consistency demands that those people also demand that we not send the National team as it is not strong enough either to be a plausible contender.

But which team was followed more closely? There are numerous threads here talking of the Open selection process, life at the olympiad, matches against top ranked teams such as Azerbaijan, and our newest GM. The Women's team only gets mentioned out of fairness. I only paid attention when Jackie Peng started turning in great individual results regardless of the team standing. I think it's very clear between the Open and Women's Olympiad teams which ones were there to compete.