The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Age is a temporary state and youth a decease that time cures easily. Youth events serves as milestones and preparation for adulthood in chess. But women events serve no such purpose. Women will remain women. Women's events just carry the idea that for some reason, women in chess are inferior to men, but nonetheless worthy of some special treatment as if permanently handicapped.

Youth is a decease? Disease? Sorry to hear about your unhappy childhood otherwise I can't imagine why you would think of youth as a disease.

Given the low percentage of youth that make the transition to adult chess as you call it the cure is not working with youth chess. We are just killing the patient. Especially if you use the same logic that Bob is applying to women's chess ie it is not producing enough high rated players. So then it is not good enough that a low percentage of juniors continue playing past the WYCC age criteria. To measure the success of youth programs you also need to produce high rated juniors en mass.

Women's events simply indicate that women are different than men. Junior only events also seem to suggest that boys and girls are different than men and women. It is not just some type of temporary quarantine.

I'm still waiting to see if Bob will clarify why he included comments in his preamble that suggest there should be no youth-older issue in chess. Why he wants to eliminate womens only chess and not junior only events. Especially given that junior chess can be argued to be 'failing' juniors if you apply his criteria of success to both.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

As I've said elsewhere, it is the system that is here at fault, and failing women.

It is not a system. It is just a tournament for women. The system would involve much more parts: promoting, coaching, playing. China, Georgia may be examples.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Hi Zeljko:

No problem with separate junior events - successive goals to strive for give motivation, and then they leave the junior system for good, into the " open, inclusive system " ( though not necessarily for the girl juniors, who can choose to play in the separate, parallel women's system ).

With the gender difference system, the argument is totally different. The women don't graduate - they just stay forever. They need to play in an open competitive system, where they play the best opposition possible: adult male; adult female; junior boy; junior girl. This will get women improving in chess, something the failed 1/2 century separate women's system has not done.

Bob A

[Felix Dumont]

Re : Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Youth is a decease? Disease? Sorry to hear about your unhappy childhood otherwise I can't imagine why you would think of youth as a disease.

It's a particular philosophy for a chess teacher....

[Roger Patterson]

Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Hi Zeljko:

No problem with separate junior events - successive goals to strive for give motivation, and then they leave the junior system for good, into the " open, inclusive system " ( though not necessarily for the girl juniors, who can choose to play in the separate, parallel women's system ).

With the gender difference system, the argument is totally different. The women don't graduate - they just stay forever. They need to play in an open competitive system, where they play the best opposition possible: adult male; adult female; junior boy; junior girl. This will get women improving in chess, something the failed 1/2 century separate women's system has not done.

Bob A

you play many, many games in the U2000 / U1800 sections of tournaments. You have not graduated and clearly, sections in tournaments are failing you. We all know many people who play in those sections but never "graduate".

When are you going to call for the elimination of all class sections?

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Hi Zeljko:

No problem with separate junior events - successive goals to strive for give motivation, and then they leave the junior system for good, into the " open, inclusive system " ( though not necessarily for the girl juniors, who can choose to play in the separate, parallel women's system ).

With the gender difference system, the argument is totally different. The women don't graduate - they just stay forever. They need to play in an open competitive system, where they play the best opposition possible: adult male; adult female; junior boy; junior girl. This will get women improving in chess, something the failed 1/2 century separate women's system has not done.

Bob A

I can't agree with you that they don't graduate. That would mean that none of these women ever enter open mixed gender events and that is just not the case. I would suggest that juniors also 'graduate' to adult events but at a lower per centage rate than womens events. How many of the juniors from 10 or 15 years ago are now playing in adult events? How many of them are master rated players? Given the hundreds of juniors participating and the dearth of CFC members I would suggest the juniors are not graduating either according to your definition.

Given your chess is for everyone to play everyone on an equal footing preamble including youth-older, richer-poorer I am surprised that you support separation of events by age but not by gender. What happened to your notion that we are all to face all at the chess board with no exceptions?

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

It's a particular philosophy for a chess teacher....

How about trying the youth is potential, youth is possible new talent philosophy instead? Do you tell your students that they are diseased? How do they react.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Hi Roger:

True I have not risen in rating - has nothing to do with the class system - pure lack of talent.

Women reinforce the slowness of their development by playing in a separate, parallel women's system, where they have potential to improve in the open system ( where I it seems do not - not that I don't try, mind you ).

Bob A

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Hi Roger:

True I have not risen in rating - has nothing to do with the class system - pure lack of talent.

Women reinforce the slowness of their development by playing in a separate, parallel women's system, where they have potential to improve in the open system ( where I it seems do not - not that I don't try, mind you ).

Bob A

Perhaps women have the right to the same lack of talent as you do.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Hi Gerry:

I have my issue.

Maybe elimination of the separate, parallel junior system is yours?? But you'll have to go some to convince me on that one. Especially when we get rid of the separate, parallel junior girls system, and just have the one open junior system ( a vast improvement ).

Bob A

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

I don't ask for prizes for my lack of talent. Should the women who lack talent?

Bob A

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

I don't ask for prizes for my lack of talent. Should the women who lack talent?

Bob A

There are prizes in every class section you enter. Are you saying you would turn them down if you won? Whether that is a cash prize or a trophy. I hope this is not about you begrudging women being able to compete for separate prizes in a tournament you can't enter because of your gender. After all these prizes are all funded by entry fees and whatever sponsorship an event can attract.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Hi Gerry:

I have my issue.

Maybe elimination of the separate, parallel junior system is yours?? But you'll have to go some to convince me on that one. Especially when we get rid of the separate, parallel junior girls system, and just have the one open junior system ( a vast improvement ).

Bob A

That's odd you are the one that convinced me with your preamble.

[Louis Morin]

Re : Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Could Canada lead the way in reforming Women's Chess in the world?? Could Canada eliminate the women's chess system in Canada, and boycott all FIDE separate women/girls tournaments?

Is Canada such a strong chess country that it should try to reform anything anywhere? In bridge too, there are men olympiads and women olympiads, tournaments for men only and tournaments for women only (as well as double team events: man + woman against man + woman, like in tennis), and nobody complains. It is not a question of intelligence being different in men and women, but simply the mere fact that many women prefer to practice their favorite pastime (bridge or chess) with other women rather than with men. At least, this social pattern is well documented in bridge, where women are much more numerous than men in clubs, but almost absent from international competitions.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

The recent Yuanling's interview for Dreadnoughts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XiUXb8vzqU