Toronto Blue Jays!!

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

Well, Dickey's personal catcher who came in the trade was shipped to the Minors in March. They had been together for a few seasons. First two games Dickey gets lit up like an Xmas tree.

Buck, the veteran catcher the Jays got and traded away has been real hot so far this season. The one they let get away so far.

The season still has a long way to go but Buerhle and Dickey have to do a bit better (Buerhle got smoked today) and the Jays still need a 2nd baseman. Bonificio made his 4th error of the season today.

Anyhow, it's still early.

The Jays won today 8-6 against the Tigers, so I'm not sure what you mean, JW.

I didn't know a genuine major league pitcher had to lean on a personal catcher. Sounds different.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

I was playing Stock Market today so I forgot to watch the game.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

I didn't know a genuine major league pitcher had to lean on a personal catcher. Sounds different.

Knuckleballs are hard to catch. The pitcher doesn't usually know where they are going. If a catcher is good at catching them and the pitcher is confident in the catcher that's often who they use.

Here's a list from the web. Note Tim Wakefield who was a knuckleball pitcher.

http://www.mikemav.com/xbl/PC_MLB.htm

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

I wonder how Wakefield did the year he tended to pitch with catcher Cash, if it was the first year they were a regular battery.

I see there was a catcher named David Ross, in the year 2006 at least. Very probable there would also be at least one chessplayer with that name. :)

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

Knuckleballs are hard to catch. The pitcher doesn't usually know where they are going. If a catcher is good at catching them and the pitcher is confident in the catcher that's often who they use.

Here's a list from the web. Note Tim Wakefield who was a knuckleball pitcher.

http://www.mikemav.com/xbl/PC_MLB.htm

Actually, apparently the unique thing with Dickey is he does have a lot more control over the knuckleball compared to a traditional knuckleballer like Wakefield. He does it partly by throwing about 10 mph faster than Wakefield did.

That doesn't make it really any easier to catch of course... but what was the point of trading for a guy whose only purpose is to catch for Dickey and then not let him catch for Dickey?

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

That doesn't make it really any easier to catch of course... but what was the point of trading for a guy whose only purpose is to catch for Dickey and then not let him catch for Dickey?

I don't know why they sent Thole to the minors in March. I think there were 3 passed balls in Dickey's first game and only 1 in his second game where the Jays used their backup catcher. Problem with the second game is Dickey didn't think his ball was breaking. One of those games, I guess.

Charlie Sheen was pitching around 85 MPH in the Movie Major League. I guess to a good fastball hitter at that speed the ball would look like a grapefruit coming to the plate. :) A good closer might throw in the 90's.

[Duncan Smith]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

Now that the regular season is well underway, and going the wrong way for the Jays so far (who aren't even bit by the injury bug yet) :(, has the optimism dried up already for many of the above posters?

Boston and the NYY almost invariably seem to have the best talent money can buy, with their bigger payroll capacity than Toronto, in spite of however promising the Jays look on paper - another reason for pessimism in addition to their trend of recent years to have the injury bug.

I hate long summers without wanting to watch baseball. :(

If you are seriously basing your interest on the first ten games of the season then maybe find another sport to watch. What were the Yankees after 9 games last season ( something similar I believe ), and Boston started 0-6 recently and were in playoff contention by August. Blue Jays were pretty good in April last few years. Lot of good that did them.

I don't know why you think that NYY and Boston have great teams this year, the Yankees have a lineup that looks doomed to failure over a long season, so unless they buy some MORE players they are going nowhere. Boston lost a starter already, they are a hard team to grade ( lot of uncertainty ). Nobody who knows baseball would ever categorize either team "as is" as being a powerhouse. So they have to compete like everyone else and maybe add a couple of stars at the trade deadline. Detroit is real good. Toronto could get real good but so far no, but its not going to take a huge win total to take their division this year.

Jays actually HAVE been struck with injuries. Losing Lawrie ( all games ) and Bautista ( 3 games ) was a big chunk of their lineup. However, they are a team built for the long haul, the deepest pitching staff in baseball. Bonofocio is not really their 2B, Izterus is. Lind will lose his job if he doesn't hit soon. These kind of issues tend to sort themselves out by May.

So they may be 3 games out end of today. You should panic now. :):):)

[Duncan Smith]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

Starting Arencebia first game was more a misguided sense of loyalty given his history of great opening days. They tried it, didn't work. The guy has been great since. Without his offence ( I believe 7 extra base hits ) they'd arguably be 1-8.

Catching is not their issue, never has been. Not sure why the chess group here is obsessed with this aspect. Infield defence more of a problem really, but Lawrie will solve that.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

I don't know much about baseball when it comes to details (I care more about results). However I do know some of the big trends that I've mentioned. Toronto's injuries are nothing so far compared to the genuine injury bug they've experienced in recent years. They are off to a bad start, but they are not like Boston & NYY in their capability to come back from such, the recent years' trends seem to indicate. I trust Boston & NYY scouting & talent assessment more than, say, the Jays' (or any fans' opinion).

I've observed that when a team falls 9 or more games out of contention for a playoff spot, they seldom come back, whatever point in the season that happens to be. So far the Jays are close to exceeding their normal pace of dropping 3 or less points out of contention each month as the season goes on, at least for many years now.

[Bindi Cheng]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

I know don't know much about baseball when it comes to details (I care more about results). However I do know some of the big trends that I've mentioned. Toronto's injuries are nothing so far compared to the genuine injury bug they've experienced in recent years. They are off to a bad start, but they are not like Boston & NYY in their capability to come back from such, the recent years' trends seem to indicate. I trust Boston & NYY scouting & talent assessment more than, say, the Jays' (or any fans' opinion).

I've observed that when a team falls 9 or more games out of contention for a playoff spot, they seldom come back, whatever point in the season that happens to be. So far the Jays are close to exceeding their normal pace of dropping 3 or less points out of contention each month as the season goes on, at least for many years now.

Kevin, you sound like a casual fan with your observations. What Gary has said is completely true, it's only been 9 games and Lawrie has missed all of those games with his great infield defense. Their pitching staff has so far been ineffective but again, the season's just started. If it's August and they're still 3 games under 500 then there's a problem. What makes you think Boston and New York's scouting and talent assessment is better than the Jays? Have you seen the top 20 prospect lists of recent years? Jays were top 5 last year (#1 on certain lists like John Sickel's list) before the massive trade in which they traded away almost all their prospects for major leaguers. Boston and Yankees on the other hand were never in the top 5 and are usually in the teens.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2013/...ystem-rankings for your reference

While Boston and New York have shown a capability to come back in the past, have you seen their roster for this year? Yankees lost Jeter, R-rod, Texeira, Granderson and Pineda so far in 2013. Jeter of course will be back soon but the rest will take a couple months before showing up. Good luck having a major league team that earns less than those on the DL. Boston got lucky and traded away Crawford, Beckett and A-gon to Dodgers and were able to shed a ton of payroll. What did they do with that payroll? Sign a bunch of medium level free agents who are 30+ years old of course. They're playing year by year and there's no guarantee any of them will be able to perform their career averages. They're a year older after all. In terms of talent, Jays are a much better team than both Boston and Yankees this year. The team most comparable to the Jays is actually Tampa and they're not off to such a hot start either.

Remember, it's only April, if 9 games are your definition of a season, you should watch American football instead.

[Duncan Smith]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

I know don't know much about baseball when it comes to details (I care more about results). However I do know some of the big trends that I've mentioned. Toronto's injuries are nothing so far compared to the genuine injury bug they've experienced in recent years. They are off to a bad start, but they are not like Boston & NYY in their capability to come back from such, the recent years' trends seem to indicate. I trust Boston & NYY scouting & talent assessment more than, say, the Jays' (or any fans' opinion).

I've observed that when a team falls 9 or more games out of contention for a playoff spot, they seldom come back, whatever point in the season that happens to be. So far the Jays are close to exceeding their normal pace of dropping 3 or less points out of contention each month as the season goes on, at least for many years now.

Most of your observations here are actually totally off base. This is obviously because you focus on short term results and fail to do your research. Such superficial analysis is never good.

I see the newspaper chat lines are packed with "pretend" baseball fans throwing in the towel on the Jays already. What does Vegas think ? Well, with reduced interest in them the line has gone from roughly 8-1 to 15-1. 15-1 is still fairly low odds to win it all. So there is obviously some smart money not totally convinced their chances have gone. Futures are usually a bad bet in baseball but if someone offered 25-1 I'd take it.

Please, please don't get on here months ( weeks ? ) from now saying you now believe in them. You've totally written them off, trashed their scouting department ( I thought their 2012 farm system was praised by many analysts ), and severely overrated the Yankees team this year.
Bandwagon's officially closed to you get some Yankees gear we don't need you.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

By nine games out of contention I meant out of a playoff spot (e.g. 9 games back in the standings of the team currently holding down the wildcard spot). I thought that'd be clear from my post.

I trust Boston & NYY scouting more than the Jays on the perhaps blind/wild logic that besides being better able to afford top salary talent, the Red Sox & NYY also can afford the best scouts & other staff. Don't actually know what these teams proportionally pay their non-player staff (compared to the Blue Jays, say) as opposed to just their players.

Tampa Bay, I agree, is also a tough team to overtake. It's well known the Jays are also unfortunate to be in a tough division.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

Guilty as charged Duncan. I am a bandwagon type fan nowadays, after being a blindly loyal Leafs fan for 40 years.

I still hope forlornly for the Jays, as they are the only Canadian team. Might have switched to the Expos, if only Montreal still had that team. :(

[Duncan Smith]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

By nine games out of contention I meant out of a playoff spot (e.g. 9 games back in the standings of the team currently holding down the wildcard spot). I thought that'd be clear from my post.

I trust Boston & NYY scouting more than the Jays on the perhaps blind/wild logic that besides being better able to afford top salary talent, the Red Sox & NYY also can afford the best scouts & other staff. Don't actually know what these teams proportionally pay their non-player staff (compared to the Blue Jays, say) as opposed to just their players.

Tampa Bay, I agree, is also a tough team to overtake. It's well known the Jays are also unfortunate to be in a tough division.

Yankees are actually known for bad decisions on veteran talent, but get away with it some years by spending boat loads of money. However, when your team gets old and drops back you can quickly become an unattractive spot for strong players to relocate too.

Yankees picked up Wells and Overbay to ensure they were at least somewhat competitive on the field. Sounds like the Jays teams from 4-5 years ago, but Wells was horrendously bad last year and Overbay barely makes the majors now.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

An observation that might have some interest: I briefly worked in an ashphalt and soil testing lab in Bramalea back in the late 1980s. At one point we tested some of the concrete being used for the Jays playing field at the time, I recall.

Like I wrote much earlier in the thread, I wonder if there is something a little wrong with the Skydome turf that might contribute to the Jays unusual number of injuries in recent seasons (see an earlier post of mine in this thread for links to reports of Jays injuries in recent years).