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Dispute - What do you think, RE: Hart House Tournament Round 4 lose on time
Any non-Goichberg (i.e. non-Continental Chess Association) tournament that I have experienced over the last few years in the US has supplied at least boards and sets (and a fair number of clocks).
In the (non-Goichberg) events I play in the NY/NJ area, I can't think of one where clocks have been provided. Sometimes the organizer has a few boards/sets, but not always. The expectation is that you bring your own gear. And if both players bring their own equipment - black gets to decide which equipment to use. With one important exception - if one player brought an analog clock, and the other brought a digital, the player who brought the digital clock can insist that it be used.
Since 5 second delay is now used in almost all tournaments in the USA (except those events with increments), the only person you can blame if your flag falls on an analog clock (in a winning or drawn position) is yourself. If you had brought a digital clock, you'd be guaranteeing yourself at least 5 seconds per move.
No need to outlaw analog clocks. Just provide a clear benefit -- a few precious seconds per move -- to those who bring a digital clock, and the 'problem' will solve itself.
A - Do it like in USA, provide zero equipment, and have a situation comparable to when Kamsky's game started over half hour late because he didn't have a clock and had to wait until one became available.
B - Simply have a Sudden Death Time Control all around, uniforming clocks by ability. After all if we, as organizers, stipulate such and players join the tournament, they would be conforming with the rules.
C - Stop hosting tournaments altogether.
D - Fly clocks in from Victoria.
E - Place a cap of 48 players because we own 24 clocks & sets.
F - Spend thousands of dollars buying clocks to use twice a year, because after all, several players don't own equipment (how?), or those who own a set and clock don't wish to lug it around.
G - Or as our former colleague Stuart Brammall has suggested several times, and some organizers have done it, RENT the equipment that we do own, round by round.
Personally, I don't really like any of the options. But the last one may merit more consideration. Something like... $15 deposit per set / clock / round. $10 refunded when equipment is brought back.
It might just provide the incentive for chess players who don't own a set / clock to invest in one, or bring it with them.
... or perhaps ...
H - Ask Strategy Games to send a representative and do that for us ... ? with their own rates.
Alex Ferreira
People keep coming to the tournaments.I dont see
any real problems.If it's not broke,dont try to fix
it.I think you guys are doing a swell job.Sudden
death is better than ajournments.:D
Re: Dispute - What do you think, RE: Hart House Tournament Round 4 lose on time
In Ottawa, the RA Chess Club has converted entirely to digital clocks for the many reasons adduced in this thread. We sold off our last analogs and purchased 20 new digitals from Larry to supplant the old Saiteks for regular club events. We try to make our clocks availabe for local EOCA events.
The basic policy for local tournaments is this: we try to supply sets, boards and digital clocks but make no guarantees; we do ask players to bring their own equipment where possible; if no digital clock is available, analog may be used with an adjustment to the time control (e.g. Instead of 90@30 digital, 120 analog).
Re: Dispute - What do you think, RE: Hart House Tournament Round 4 lose on time
Hi Alex, I have not done much organizing/TDing in Ottawa this past year, but in the previous half-decade, where I was running most of the weekenders in the Ottawa area, thanks to an FQE idea, we VERY RARELY had any clock problems. I heard an idea from the FQE which seemed very simple yet effective. Basically, if either player had a clock that was capable of our digital time control (90 minutes + 30 seconds), than that clock had to be used. If the only clock those two players had available was an analog, then they would play 2 hours each. I also bought some of my own digitals, and rented them for $2 per round. It was extremely rare that a player would rent clocks after his first tournament of renting a clock. In subsequent events, such players would miraculously remember to bring their clocks, lol. Finally, a couple of times, I had players who did not have clocks, and were not willing to rent clocks. So I informed them they could play without a clock, and if they had not finished by the time I was going to do the pairings for the next round, that I would adjudicate the result right then and there. In both cases, one of the players suddenly remembered that he had a clock in his car in the parking lot!
Anyway, my main point is that I humbly submit to you that it is overkill to emphasize a standard sudden-death time control for a section, only because it cannot be guaranteed that everyone will play an incremental time control. If you give precedence to digitals, then you will have as many incremental games as possible, which is way better for the section as a whole, than having the whole section subjected to risky sudden-deaths.
Re: Dispute - What do you think, RE: Hart House Tournament Round 4 lose on time
Thank you everyone's opinion, on behalf of Lily, I really appreciate so many response. Thanks for John's quoted regulations (John is our chess authority in Windsor) and other's posts. Also thanks for Alex's final explanation and Bryne's final decision. I respect and accept the decision even though it is not in favor of Lily. I don't see if the result change would be fair to Jack, I can see Jack worked hard, as a young university student, he learns chess on his own without coach, he deserves the 1 point, especially I noticed that he won the last round even he was considerably distracted by this issue and being inquired by arbitor during last round, but Lily blundered a knight in last round while being distracted emotionly and being inquired during last round.
As Lily having played chess for just two years and a few months, I don't blame her not understanding so many detail rules, and not blaming her coaches not telling her about this situation, though she might learn many rules during last two year's U10 girls WYCC experience from our Canadian International Arbitors.
The result is not important at all, the most important thing is that our Canadian Chess Community especailly arbitors should teach the kids what the correct rules are, so that it will benefit the next generation, especially when playing in the world.
I guess what I have learned from this and will teach my daughter that:
1. all claims if applicable must be claimed during the game, when game is over, the result is final.(from arbitor)
2. only the player can and legally be able to pause the clock to call arbitor for a dispute (from arbitor)
3. when game is over, forget what has happend, no matter a win or loss, focus on next game (concluded myself)
4. during a new round, don't talk about previous round situation, even with the arbitor.
5. When the time drops too short in seconds, SaiTek clock is not good enough (noticed from arbitor's test with different clocks by same player during last round), I may purchase a better clock when I got money :)
I would appreciate any correction and any best practise on different abnormal situation which will benefit not just Lily, but also many other children players and their parents.
Last edited by George Zhou; Tuesday, 26th February, 2013, 01:36 AM.
Re: Dispute - What do you think, RE: Hart House Tournament Round 4 lose on time
I think that the correct decision was made. If the clock was faulty the player should stop his or her clock when they realize this and inform the arbiter about it while the game is still being played. After the game is done it is too late to place your greivances. I guess since it was a blitz situation where both parties were forced to move fast it was impossible for either of them to examine the clock to see if it was faulty. The only people who would be able to tell if the clock was not running properly in the time scramble would be the spectators. I dont think spectators are allowed to interfere with the game or place greivances. To win a tournament you always need a little luck even though it is mostly a skill game. In this tournament the luck did not go Lillys way but she is a tough competitor and who knows maybe next tournament the luck will be on your side. I am glad I am not an arbiter.
Thank you everyone's opinion, on behalf of Lily, I really appreciate so many response. Thanks for John's quoted regulations (John is our chess authority in Windsor) and other's posts. Also thanks for Alex's final explanation and Bryne's final decision. I respect and accept the decision even though it is not in favor of Lily. I don't see if the result change would be fair to Jack, I can see Jack worked hard, as a young university student, he learns chess on his own without coach, he deserves the 1 point, especially I noticed that he won the last round even he was considerably distracted by this issue and being inquired by arbitor during last round, but Lily blundered a knight in last round while being distracted emotionly and being inquired during last round.
As Lily having played chess for just two years and a few months, I don't blame her not understanding so many detail rules, and not blaming her coaches not telling her about this situation, though she might learn many rules during last two year's U10 girls WYCC experience from our Canadian International Arbitors.
The result is not important at all, the most important thing is that our Canadian Chess Community especailly arbitors should teach the kids what the correct rules are, so that it will benefit the next generation, especially when playing in the world.
I guess what I have learned from this and will teach my daughter that:
1. all claims if applicable must be claimed during the game, when game is over, the result is final.(from arbitor)
2. only the player can and legally be able to pause the clock to call arbitor for a dispute (from arbitor)
3. when game is over, forget what has happend, no matter a win or loss, focus on next game (concluded myself)
4. during a new round, don't talk about previous round situation, even with the arbitor.
5. When the time drops too short in seconds, SaiTek clock is not good enough (noticed from arbitor's test with different clocks by same player during last round), I may purchase a better clock when I got money :)
I would appreciate any correction and any best practise on different abnormal situation which will benefit not just Lily, but also many other children players and their parents.
6) when presenting the situation to the chess community for an opinion try to remember to present all the facts for a complete picture.
Such as the fact that it was your own clock you were claiming to be defective. That the clock was placed by apparent agreement by both players, in a position that the arbiter could not see the clock face in the final time scramble. Those are all important facts that have a bearing on the situation.
So best practices I suggest would be not to move the clock from where the arbiter could see it in a scramble. Not to allow the other player to do so either. Also to periodically check your own clock to make sure it is operating correctly, the battery is not running down, the buttons are working. As an option if the player has a light touch when pressing their clock they may want to practice a bit on this.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Tuesday, 26th February, 2013, 11:35 AM.
Re: Dispute - What do you think, RE: Hart House Tournament Round 4 lose on time
Hi Alex;
I like the idea of renting equipment. But charge $15 for pieces and give back $5.
At strategy games you can buy a set for under $10 and a complete chess kit
for $23. So after two rounds of renting, a player can see they could have bought a chess set cheaper.
For clocks rent for $25 and give back $10. Clocks are more valuable and my experience is that when the product is not yours you tend to not take as much care with it.
Hey if players who come regularly to tournaments and can pay as much as $90
to enter, yet cannot afford a chess clock or pieces then maybe they should sit out a couple events and invest in a set and clock. That is at least a guaranteed
prize for the money spent.
Hey if players who come regularly to tournaments and can pay as much as $90
to enter, yet cannot afford a chess clock or pieces then maybe they should sit out a couple events and invest in a set and clock. That is at least a guaranteed
prize for the money spent.
Pretty naive of you. Obviously everyone can afford it, and there is a high chance everyone owns one. The issue, however, is that they choose not to bring it with them for whatever reason. Let's face it those things don't make a fashion statement.
and 6) when presenting the situation to the chess community for an opinion try to remember to present all the facts for a complete picture, such as the fact that it was your own clock you were claiming to be defective and that the clock was placed by apparent agreement by both players in a position that the arbiter could not see the clock face in the final time scramble, those are all important facts that have a bearing on the situation so a best practice I suggest would be not to move the clock from where the arbiter could see it in a scramble and not to allow the other player to do so either and another best practice would be to periodically check your own clock to make sure it is operating correctly
Zeljko,
Not to be insulting, but when posting on a public forum like Chesstalk, please use punctuation; it would make it much easier for the readers. Your reply consisted of 135 words in a single paragraph with only two commas and not a single period.
Jordan
No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it.
Hi Alex;
I like the idea of renting equipment. But charge $15 for pieces and give back $5.
At strategy games you can buy a set for under $10 and a complete chess kit
for $23. So after two rounds of renting, a player can see they could have bought a chess set cheaper.
For clocks rent for $25 and give back $10. Clocks are more valuable and my experience is that when the product is not yours you tend to not take as much care with it.
Hey if players who come regularly to tournaments and can pay as much as $90
to enter, yet cannot afford a chess clock or pieces then maybe they should sit out a couple events and invest in a set and clock. That is at least a guaranteed
prize for the money spent.
2$ is for a single round. Usually, they manage to find a clock before the start of the next round :)
Also, instead of asking for a deposit, we usually ask for an ID card.
1. all claims if applicable must be claimed during the game, when game is over, the result is final.(from arbitor)
...
3. when game is over, forget what has happend, no matter a win or loss, focus on next game (concluded myself)
If there were some arbiters decisions made during the game, a player may write an appeal within reasonable time (the tournament may set the allocated time like one hour). A player should not sign the scoresheet with the result (like declaring that (s)he does not agree with the final result)
The main rule young players should learn is a threefold repetition claim. Canadian are famous with this rule @ WYCC. Though the tradition should not continue LOL
Other conflict situations are more or less preventable with a good play and time management :)
Not to be insulting, but when posting on a public forum like Chesstalk, please use punctuation; it would make it much easier for the readers. Your reply consisted of 135 words in a single paragraph with only two commas and not a single period.
Re: Dispute - What do you think, RE: Hart House Tournament Round 4 lose on time
What happens if the clock runs out while you are making the claim?
I have played in tournaments where Player X went to press the clock and due to some sort of malfunction the clock kept ticking for the side who pressed the clock so it had to be pressed again. Could you make a claim to get your time back if you could prove the clock malfunctioned even if you had run out of time? Would it matter if the clock was yours, your opponent's, or was supplied by the tournament?
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
Thank you everyone's opinion, on behalf of Lily, I really appreciate so many response. Thanks for John's quoted regulations (John is our chess authority in Windsor) and other's posts. Also thanks for Alex's final explanation and Bryne's final decision. I respect and accept the decision even though it is not in favor of Lily. I don't see if the result change would be fair to Jack, I can see Jack worked hard, as a young university student, he learns chess on his own without coach, he deserves the 1 point, especially I noticed that he won the last round even he was considerably distracted by this issue and being inquired by arbitor during last round, but Lily blundered a knight in last round while being distracted emotionly and being inquired during last round.
As Lily having played chess for just two years and a few months, I don't blame her not understanding so many detail rules, and not blaming her coaches not telling her about this situation, though she might learn many rules during last two year's U10 girls WYCC experience from our Canadian International Arbitors.
The result is not important at all, the most important thing is that our Canadian Chess Community especailly arbitors should teach the kids what the correct rules are, so that it will benefit the next generation, especially when playing in the world.
I guess what I have learned from this and will teach my daughter that:
1. all claims if applicable must be claimed during the game, when game is over, the result is final.(from arbitor)
2. only the player can and legally be able to pause the clock to call arbitor for a dispute (from arbitor)
3. when game is over, forget what has happend, no matter a win or loss, focus on next game (concluded myself)
4. during a new round, don't talk about previous round situation, even with the arbitor.
5. When the time drops too short in seconds, SaiTek clock is not good enough (noticed from arbitor's test with different clocks by same player during last round), I may purchase a better clock when I got money :)
I would appreciate any correction and any best practise on different abnormal situation which will benefit not just Lily, but also many other children players and their parents.
George - congratulations and thanks for a well written and thoughtful post about this situation. Problems with clocks are very difficult to manage and are frustrating. Hopefully Lily (and you) are more informed about the procedures that can be followed.
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