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Dispute - What do you think, RE: Hart House Tournament Round 4 lose on time
What happens if the clock runs out while you are making the claim?
I have played in tournaments where Player X went to press the clock and due to some sort of malfunction the clock kept ticking for the side who pressed the clock so it had to be pressed again. Could you make a claim to get your time back if you could prove the clock malfunctioned even if you had run out of time? Would it matter if the clock was yours, your opponent's, or was supplied by the tournament?
A.
An interesting question though it requires more details. What (how) do you claim? When does your clock flag?
B.
Did the play press hard enough? Did both clock run at the same time? From rules point, it does not matter to whom the clock belongs.
What happens if the clock runs out while you are making the claim?
I have played in tournaments where Player X went to press the clock and due to some sort of malfunction the clock kept ticking for the side who pressed the clock so it had to be pressed again. Could you make a claim to get your time back if you could prove the clock malfunctioned even if you had run out of time? Would it matter if the clock was yours, your opponent's, or was supplied by the tournament?
I think it does matter. It is up to the person who controls the clock to make sure it is functioning properly. In other words that the battery is changed regularly and that the display or buttons are not damaged. If you don't change the battery and the clock ends up malfunctioning due to a lack of power I think that would be the responsibility of whoever brought the clock. Otherwise when do you change the battery? When the clock stops functioning in the middle of a game or at the end during a time scramble?
In this case it seems that the person who owns the clock has indicted he will continue to use that clock in tournaments until he can afford to buy a new one. Why would you do that if you claim that it is defective?
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Tuesday, 26th February, 2013, 05:05 PM.
A.
An interesting question though it requires more details. What (how) do you claim? When does your clock flag?
B.
Did the play press hard enough? Did both clock run at the same time? From rules point, it does not matter to whom the clock belongs.
A. Was a general question.
B. I can recall it happening twice. Once happened about three years ago. I was Player X and I pressed the clock but the mechanism didn't register it. My opponent pointed it out. It happened a second time later in the game but this time I was somewhat short of time (about two minutes left) and my opponent again pointed it out. The nice guy was Nikita Kraouchkine. The clock was supplied by the RA.
The other time it happened was about ten years ago in San Francisco. My opponent was Player X and I was the nice guy. In this case he was down to about five seconds when he hit the clock, it didn't register, and it ticked down to about two seconds before we simultaneously noticed. There was no way to reset the clocks without disturbing the other players so I offered to agree to not call his flag if he moved reasonably quickly until getting to time control (in two or three moves). He agreed, and made time control anyway. The clock was supplied by the Mechanics' Chess Club.
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
I think it does matter. It is up to the person who controls the clock to make sure it is functioning properly. In other words that the battery is changed regularly and that the display or buttons are not damaged. If you don't change the battery and the clock ends up malfunctioning due to a lack of power I think that would be the responsibility of whoever brought the clock. Otherwise when do you change the battery? When the clock stops functioning in the middle of a game or at the end during a time scramble?
In this case it seems that the person who owns the clock has indicted he will continue to use that clock in tournaments until he can afford to buy a new one. Why would you do that if you claim that it is defective?
There are a number of questions about clocks that are not simple and may or may not be verified by the owner or the keeper of the clock!
When I play in a tournament or club game, I am always concerned that the clock actually works properly, has been SET properly - not just time control, but increments etc. The recent digital clocks have SO MANY options and bells and whistles that I don't know if anyone (the owner or otherwise) can be reasonably expected to verify everything before or during the game. I know there are brands of clocks that I cannot set! If I am using a clock supplied by my opponent (as opposed to supplied by the organizers) I suppose I might be even more concerned!?
A broader question occurs when a faulty clock is discovered; it may not be easy to determine exactly what disadvantage was foisted on the faulted side (or sides?) - I am not sure what an arbiter should rule in such cases. It may be impossible to determine how much time one side lost or gained and therefore what compensation is reasonable...
There are a number of questions about clocks that are not simple and may or may not be verified by the owner or the keeper of the clock! Especially in this kind of scenario where someone has 2 seconds on their clock and the other player has seconds left as well.
When I play in a tournament or club game, I am always concerned that the clock actually works properly, has been SET properly - not just time control, but increments etc. The recent digital clocks have SO MANY options and bells and whistles that I don't know if anyone (the owner or otherwise) can be reasonably expected to verify everything before or during the game. I know there are brands of clocks that I cannot set! If I am using a clock supplied by my opponent (as opposed to supplied by the organizers) I suppose I might be even more concerned!?
A broader question occurs when a faulty clock is discovered; it may not be easy to determine exactly what disadvantage was foisted on the faulted side (or sides?) - I am not sure what an arbiter should rule in such cases. It may be impossible to determine how much time one side lost or gained and therefore what compensation is reasonable...
On the other hand for digital clocks their reliability seems to be quite high. This is the first time that I've heard of an issue with one. At least this kind of mysterious issue of not decreasing or gaining time at the 2 second mark. I've run into issues with analog clocks much more than digitals. Analogs also have an error factor that affects this kind of time scramble. They are at least out by plus or minus 30 to 45 seconds and maybe up to a full minute from the specified time control; because of how you have to set them up. Sure we all pretended that they were accurate and did our best eyeballing them to set them up. However, really they weren't.
Speaking of which, didn't you and I have the same issue once at the Burlington club with an analog clock? If I remember right one of the club clocks was defective and ran fast on one side. When I pointed out that was happening (because I noticed that more time had passed on my clock than we had been actually playing) we agreed on a draw did we not?
If you own a clock I think you need to know how to set it. Especially if you want to claim a change in the game result because of how the clock was set up by you. Changing the battery regularly is probably the easiest and most effective way to deal with most issues. Otherwise you need to send it back to the manufacturer if still under warranty. Continuing to use the suspected defective clock is not a viable option. Unless you withdraw your claim that your clock is defective thus agreeing with the arbiter.
My favourite clock story was an opponent who would not accept my claim to a won game when his clock flagged. He merely looked at his watch and said we had such and such a time to play until and it wasn't that time yet. Still not clear to me what he thought the chess clock was for.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Tuesday, 26th February, 2013, 06:48 PM.
Re: Dispute - What do you think, RE: Hart House Tournament Round 4 lose on time
Sorry, I should have made my question clearer.
What would happen if you ran out of time while claiming the clock is defective? Since losing on time ends the game and you have to make a claim before the game is over ...
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
What would happen if you ran out of time while claiming the clock is defective? Since losing on time ends the game and you have to make a claim before the game is over ...
imho, you can stop/pause the clock and start a claim with an arbiter. An arbiter would decide if a claim is valid (a clock malfunctions) and he should correct time.
imho, you can stop/pause the clock and start a claim with an arbiter. An arbiter would decide if a claim is valid (a clock malfunctions) and he should correct time.
Yes. If there's an obvious problem with the clock, you wouldn't automatically lose on time. Otherwise, there could be a malfunction that made you lose on your first move, and it would be too late to make a claim.
Speaking of which, didn't you and I have the same issue once at the Burlington club with an analog clock? If I remember right one of the club clocks was defective and ran fast on one side. When I pointed out that was happening (because I noticed that more time had passed on my clock than we had been actually playing) we agreed on a draw did we not?
That could be. I recall buying some used clocks from the leftovers of the old Weston club and several turned out to be not working very well (the old wooden BHB clocks).
That could be. I recall buying some used clocks from the leftovers of the old Weston club and several turned out to be not working very well (the old wooden BHB clocks).
I still have my BHB clock in working order. I used to use it for speed chess when someone would drop over. Hour after hour of 5 minute speed chess.
It has a plate with my name engraved on the top and I can't recall where I got the clock.
I also have a digital clock but have never used it. I remember buying it new, kind of on prospective. The closest I came to using it was taking it out and having my opponent ask if I wanted to play 5 minute chess or had I gotten so old I need increments to make the time.
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