COVID-19 ... how we cope :)

[Dilip Panjwani]

I have a right to walk down the street without wearing a mask.

Tom, am I missing something here or are you? Wearing a mask is less for your own protection, which you have the full right to decline, but it is mainly to protect innocent passers-by: which in Libertarian theory you may also decline, provided there is a mechanism of you ending up compensating them and their loved ones if you do end up transmitting the virus to them. Currently it is not possible to have such a mechanism, and so wearing a mask is more important than wearing clothes on the rest of one's body (the happy Libertarian walking naked down the street is never a problem...)

[Brad Thomson]

Tom, am I missing something here or are you? Wearing a mask is less for your own protection, which you have the full right to decline, but it is mainly to protect innocent passers-by: which in Libertarian theory you may also decline, provided there is a mechanism of you ending up compensating them and their loved ones if you do end up transmitting the virus to them. Currently it is not possible to have such a mechanism, and so wearing a mask is more important than wearing clothes on the rest of one's body (the happy Libertarian walking naked down the street is never a problem...)

This is a ticklish debate, but one thing I will say is this. If the rules are made by morons like Brown, Ford and Trudeau who keep hypocritically breaking them, then yes Tom, you are certainly correct to say that we have the right to walk down the sidewalk without wearing a mask. Politicians who place themselves above the rules are tyrants.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Tom, am I missing something here or are you? Wearing a mask is less for your own protection, which you have the full right to decline, but it is mainly to protect innocent passers-by: which in Libertarian theory you may also decline, provided there is a mechanism of you ending up compensating them and their loved ones if you do end up transmitting the virus to them. Currently it is not possible to have such a mechanism, and so wearing a mask is more important than wearing clothes on the rest of one's body (the happy Libertarian walking naked down the street is never a problem...)

To be clear, my opinion above was limited to walking down the street, which is what I wrote, as opposed to going into a business for example that requires a mask to enter.

With that in mind, if you knowingly have Covid, I would agree with your assessment. If a person doesn't have Covid, or doesn't have any symptoms, then no. Using your logic literally everyone would always and forever in public have to wear a mask, gloves, etc. After all you might have some other transmissible disease that proves fatal. Do you isolate yourself when you have a cold, or do you wear a mask and gloves? If not, why not? A person with a poor immune system could die from your cold. Heck, you might not have any symptoms of a cold, pass it on to someone, and kill them. You devil!

[Dilip Panjwani]

Using your logic literally everyone would always and forever in public have to wear a mask, gloves, etc. After all you might have some other transmissible disease that proves fatal. Do you isolate yourself when you have a cold, or do you wear a mask and gloves? If not, why not?

It all boils down to probabilities, and the cost/benefit ratio. During an active pandemic, the probability of an asymptomatic person doing harm to others by not wearing a mask is higher, and the cost/benefit ratio of 'always and forever' wearing masks is higher when we are not in an active epidemic or pandemic...

[Dilip Panjwani]

This is a ticklish debate, but one thing I will say is this. If the rules are made by morons like Brown, Ford and Trudeau who keep hypocritically breaking them, then yes Tom, you are certainly correct to say that we have the right to walk down the sidewalk without wearing a mask. Politicians who place themselves above the rules are tyrants.

Agree... the rules for what happens on your street have to be made democratically by the people living by that street and the people walking down that street, not someone in an ivory tower elsewhere...

[Tom O'Donnell]

It all boils down to probabilities, and the cost/benefit ratio. During an active pandemic, the probability of an asymptomatic person doing harm to others by not wearing a mask is higher, and the cost/benefit ratio of 'always and forever' wearing masks is higher when we are not in an active epidemic or pandemic...

This is becoming a circular discussion. I point out again that the very people who are creating these laws are not following them. I watch what people do, rather than listen to what they say. They act like all this is not important. I believe their actions are truthful while their talk is self-serving virtue-signalling. YMMV.

[Pargat Perrer]

To be clear, my opinion above was limited to walking down the street, which is what I wrote, as opposed to going into a business for example that requires a mask to enter.

With that in mind, if you knowingly have Covid, I would agree with your assessment. If a person doesn't have Covid, or doesn't have any symptoms, then no. Using your logic literally everyone would always and forever in public have to wear a mask, gloves, etc. After all you might have some other transmissible disease that proves fatal. Do you isolate yourself when you have a cold, or do you wear a mask and gloves? If not, why not? A person with a poor immune system could die from your cold. Heck, you might not have any symptoms of a cold, pass it on to someone, and kill them. You devil!

The evidence has been in for many months now that the difference with Covid is that people can have the virus, be absent of symptoms, AND BE SHEDDING THE VIRUS. This is different from the cold, where you have symptoms during the phase that you can infect others.

Thus all argument about wearing a mask are moot. Wear the mask at all times when going out. There are a handful of places where they did this, I think Hong Kong was the best example, and it worked.

And in many places in Asia, the majority of people wear masks in public even before Covid. But we in North America are too hung up on 'personal liberty and freedom" which is a very selfish pursuit when taken too far... which Tom still hasn't said just how far he would want to take it, given that it can't be total without humanity's existence being in peril.

[Brad Thomson]

But we in North America are too hung up on 'personal liberty and freedom" which is a very selfish pursuit when taken too far..

Agreed, but we need to be very careful with the mentality expressed by the slogan, "Never let a good crisis go to waste." Would be tyrants look for any opportunity to control us, and we must be on guard against this with full vigilance. As soon as fools like Trump and Trudeau do not practice what they preach we should become extremely wary and concerned and we should certainly consider not practicing their preachings ourselves. The problem with politics is that the more corrupted a person is the more likely they are to seek political office, and the more honourable someone is the less likely they are to want to be involved politically.

[Fred Harvey]

he problem with politics is that the more corrupted a person is the more likely they are to seek political office, and the more honourable someone is the less likely they are to want to be involved politically.

Smells like another conspiracy theory!

[Dilip Panjwani]

The problem with politics is that the more corrupted a person is the more likely they are to seek political office

That's one reason why the panacea called Libertarianism, a perfect co-existence of extreme personal freedom and a harmonious civic society, has yet to become a reality...

[Brad Thomson]

Smells like another conspiracy theory!

I do not suspect that corrupted people "conspire" to achieve political control, I think it is just natural for these sorts of people to do so. Nor have honourable people "conspired" to stay out of politics, they simply do not like associating with con-men and -women.

[Pargat Perrer]

I do not suspect that corrupted people "conspire" to achieve political control, I think it is just natural for these sorts of people to do so. Nor have honourable people "conspired" to stay out of politics, they simply do not like associating with con-men and -women.

"With great power comes great responsibility."

A lot of people don't really want that responsibility. And yes, they do know that once they are in the system, all sorts of conflicts of interest will arise to test their honesty, and they may not be able to resist the temptations.

The crux of the problem is that politics has become associated with wealth. The above statement could be amended in today's world to say:

"With great power comes great wealth."

Politics needs to be a strictly VOLUNTEER endeavor with maybe a basic income... similar to being a church pastor.

Just look at how quickly and completely the Republican Party has fallen in line with Trump. Republicans are the party that most associates with earning great wealth. You won't ever catch them bemoaning the 1%, they are the 1%. But to my point, the senior politicians in the Republican Party were initially disdainful of Trump even when he won the election. Then guess what happened? Trump starting tweeting... and his tweets controlled the stock market. All the Republicans had to do was read between the lines of Trumps tweets, and either buy or sell in the market, and voila, great wealth began accumulating. And now you have almost 100% approval of Trump within that party. They have "bought in".

[Pargat Perrer]

That's one reason why the panacea called Libertarianism, a perfect co-existence of extreme personal freedom and a harmonious civic society, has yet to become a reality...

That's cool, but the question still remains and Tom O'Donnell doesn't seem to have an answer or want to answer:

What mechanism is put in place to decide whether some government policy or action / inaction is either too much of an infringement of personal liberty OR is needed for the good of society? What are the deciding factors?

Let's take this wearing a mask everywhere problem. There's plenty of opinions, but the facts show that people without covid symptoms can be having AND spreading the virus. That is the single thing that makes covid much more dangerous than other viruses (so far). So... given this new development, governments have to decide something. What would a "perfect coexistence" Liberterian government of your dreams decide on this particular issue, and on what basis?

[Dilip Panjwani]

Let's take this wearing a mask everywhere problem. There's plenty of opinions, but the facts show that people without covid symptoms can be having AND spreading the virus. That is the single thing that makes covid much more dangerous than other viruses (so far). So... given this new development, governments have to decide something. What would a "perfect coexistence" Liberterian government of your dreams decide on this particular issue, and on what basis?

Only when you cannot maintain social distancing, as on busy narrow streets, or have a pronged interaction at only about 6 feet distance, is a mask necessary. In a truly libertarian society (if it were to exist) governments would ensure lots of public education, but refrain from making any laws for streets, because theoretically, others can protect themselves by wearing fit-tested N95 masks....

[Brad Thomson]

Politics needs to be a strictly VOLUNTEER endeavor with maybe a basic income... similar to being a church pastor.

My personal opinion is that the problem is not the system, it is the people. If we were all honourable and loving then any system would work, including capitalism, communism, socialism, anarchy or dictatorship. But because we are for the most part dishonourable and hating, no system will work. Insofar as we are a bunch of selfish, greedy hoodlums, the best system, the one most likely to make us happy because it recognizes our true nature, is one where we can freely go around cheating, breaking rules and ripping each other off to the greatest extent possible. Basically, this is the system that America has evolved into. Mankind has reached his zenith.