Anthropogenic Negative Climate Change (ANCC)

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  • Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
    Hi Dilip:

    I know we agree to disagree, but I'll just state my position again:

    1. Capitalism has brought progress, at the cost of great exploitation of the peasant/worker, and is UNSUSTAINABLE in the long run.
    2. USSR-style Communism has brought material progress (China) but at the expense of the rights and privacy of the worker.
    3. Democratic Marxism is new and never been tried.......the closest historical equivalent in Chile under the Unity Government of President Salvadore Allende (1970-3) - ended by a military coup instigated by USA.
    4. IF world temperature rise is driven by both human activity AND natural process, yes we should do our best to minimize the amount of the increase we are contributing.
    5. Yes, if there is no reducing the rate of speed of heat increase near the surface of the Earth, mankind will need all their ingenuity to "adapt" to the increasingly hostile natural environment........and I fear that mankind will, like the dinosaurs, be unable to adapt and will go extinct.

    ~ Bob A (T-S/P)
    Point by point:
    1. It is the quality of life of all, perhaps most for the lower middle class, that has improved in free-market economies. I agree that capitalism is certainly unsustainable, and libertarianism is very much the answer.
    2. USSR did not progress, it failed. China progressed only after it adopted private-business friendly policies.
    3. Democratic Marxism: Legally sanctioned stealing/suppressing of the ones capable of achieving greatness to hand over freebies to those who are not inclined to improve/adapt.
    4, I agree with your capitalizing the IF, and your words 'do our best'... not do our worst, foolish stuff like destroying our agriculture, like what happenned in Sri Lanka in its anti-fertilizer drive...and what is happenning in Europe and to some extent in Biden's USA...
    5. Mankind is more ingenious than dinosaurs, and so your pessimism is perhaps over-stated...
    Last edited by Dilip Panjwani; Saturday, 13th August, 2022, 10:12 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Bob Armstrong
      This trapped heat leads to melting ice caps and rising ocean levels, which cause flooding.

      Those melting ice caps and rising ocean levels create cause more than flooding, but I'll stop here for now.
      That is an excellent idea to "stop here".

      The polar Ice cap is increasing in size, not decreasing. Even Greenland is not melting at any greater rate it has in the last 80 Years and, in fact, in the last decade, has slowed significantly.


      https://notrickszone.com/2021/11/14/...ish-data-show/

      https://co2coalition.org/news/antarc...mospheric-co2/

      As I posted earlier, Globally sea levels have not risen appreciably.
      https://forum.chesstalk.com/forum/ch...807#post220807

      Anthropogenic Signal Not Detectable in Sea Level Rise
      https://co2coalition.org/news/4-new-...ea-level-rise/

      So the good news is that your doom and gloom predictions are nonsense. The bad news is that govts around the world plan to starve us in the name of depopulation and climate change.
      Apparently, the death shots have not murdered enough people including an estimated 237,000 deaths from deathshots vs (21000 "COVID deaths") in Canada alone! Statistics Canada refuses to publish 2021 excess death statistics so we have to extrapolate from other countries that do publish this data.
      https://hervk102.substack.com/p/raw-...ngland-january


      Please watch this newly released documentary about the Boer farmer's rebellion taking place in the Netherlands that is at the verge of civil war as the Govt destroys agriculture and farmers' livelihoods in the name of climate fear porn. As a farmer you should be most concerned as the same policy is now happening in Canada.
      Last edited by Sid Belzberg; Saturday, 13th August, 2022, 11:16 AM.

      Comment


      • Thanks Sid - I am watching the fertilizer issue globally.

        ~ Bob A (T-S/P)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sid Belzberg View Post

          The polar Ice cap is increasing in size, not decreasing. Even Greenland is not melting at any greater rate it has in the last 80 Years and, in fact, in the last decade, has slowed significantly.
          Not true.

          ​​​​​​https://news.theearthsite.greatergoo...YP98vIV2sV-qq8

          Scroll down to video animation of Arctic Ice Cap from 1984 to 2016.

          The ice surface expands and receeds every year with the seasons, but satellites can measure the thickness of the ice. It is getting thinner.

          Greenland is still melting, and picking up speed.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgbl...ab_channel=CNN


          From 4 years ago
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3gv...l=BeyondCrisis
          Last edited by Bob Gillanders; Sunday, 14th August, 2022, 07:01 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bob Gillanders View Post

            Not true.

            ​​​​​​https://news.theearthsite.greatergoo...YP98vIV2sV-qq8

            Scroll down to video animation of Arctic Ice Cap from 1984 to 2016.

            The ice surface expands and receeds every year with the seasons, but satellites can measure the thickness of the ice. It is getting thinner.

            Greenland is still melting, and picking up speed.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgbl...ab_channel=CNN


            From 4 years ago
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3gv...l=BeyondCrisis
            CNN as your reference????

            My reference is the Danish Cooperation for Environment in the Arctic) under the Danish Ministry for Energy, Utilities and Climate. This is the portal
            http://polarportal.dk/en/greenland/surface-conditions/

            Ice mass changes is the data measurements of the ice edge and calving rates, in addition to the surface mass variations.
            Each year the Danish Polar Portal reports the sum of both of these factors. This determines whether Greenland ice is growing or shrinking,

            The following chart plots the total mass balance changes since 1985:
            Screen Shot 2022-08-14 at 9.20.52 AM.png


            Greenland ice mass change bottomed out in 2012, and has been seeing less and less loss for 15 years. Each year mass loss has been declining.

            Currently Greenland mass balance change is at levels seen in 2000. The days of rapid mass loss are behind us, at least for now. The year 2021 came in at -100 gigatonnes. In 2017 and 2018 mass was actually added.

            False media narrative

            When it comes to Greenland ice mass, “The usual media narrative of an alleged increasingly rapid ice melt in Greenland is thus not correct.”



            Last edited by Sid Belzberg; Sunday, 14th August, 2022, 09:33 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sid Belzberg View Post

              CNN as your reference????
              Not necessarily. Actually I tried to change it to this one, but some technical problems,
              so let's try again. I see not all of your post got presented as well.??

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQy-...hannel=Reuters

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bob Gillanders View Post

                Not necessarily. Actually I tried to change it to this one, but some technical problems,
                so let's try again. I see not all of your post got presented as well.??

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQy-...hannel=Reuters
                Again, you are relying on o a false media narrative. I edited my post above and showed the actual data from the Danish Cooperation for Environment in the Arctic) under the Danish Ministry for Energy, Utilities and Climate http://polarportal.dk/en/greenland/surface-conditions/
                The data is not congruent with the false media narrative of an alleged increasingly rapid ice melt in Greenland. Check my post above https://forum.chesstalk.com/forum/ch...200#post221200
                Last edited by Sid Belzberg; Sunday, 14th August, 2022, 10:08 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sid Belzberg View Post

                  Again, you are relying on o a false media narrative. I edited my post above and showed the actual data from the Danish Cooperation for Environment in the Arctic) under the Danish Ministry for Energy, Utilities and Climate http://polarportal.dk/en/greenland/surface-conditions/
                  The data is not congruent with the false media narrative of an alleged increasingly rapid ice melt in Greenland. Check my post above https://forum.chesstalk.com/forum/ch...200#post221200
                  Oh, thats better, before all I could see was this giant picture of a monkey mocking CNN.

                  I see your chart, which appears to show the trend line reversing direction around 2014. Okay.

                  But I looked around your site a little and found this passage:

                  The Greenland Ice Sheet is the second largest mass of freshwater ice on the planet. Only the ice sheet in Antarctica is bigger.
                  In recent decades the ice sheet has begun to shrink, meaning that the ice sheet loses more mass in the form of melt water or icebergs than it receives from precipitation. This process of mass loss started around 1990 and has accelerated since the year 2000. The mass loss in recent years is approximately four times greater than it was before 2000. This has already had consequences in the Arctic and beyond.

                  This passage would appear to contradict your chart. Oh, maybe not.
                  I see 2 years, 2017 - 2018, with no melting. Okay, but melting again in 2019, 2020, 2021.
                  Am I reading that chart correctly?

                  2017, 2018 are possibly statistical outliers?
                  Last edited by Bob Gillanders; Sunday, 14th August, 2022, 10:56 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bob Gillanders View Post

                    Oh, thats better, before all I could see was this giant picture of a monkey mocking CNN.

                    I see your chart, which appears to show the trend line reversing direction around 2014. Okay.

                    But I looked around your site a little and found this passage:

                    The Greenland Ice Sheet is the second largest mass of freshwater ice on the planet. Only the ice sheet in Antarctica is bigger.
                    In recent decades the ice sheet has begun to shrink, meaning that the ice sheet loses more mass in the form of melt water or icebergs than it receives from precipitation. This process of mass loss started around 1990 and has accelerated since the year 2000. The mass loss in recent years is approximately four times greater than it was before 2000. This has already had consequences in the Arctic and beyond.

                    This passage would appear to contradict your chart. Oh, maybe not.
                    I see 2 years, 2017 - 2018, with no melting. Okay, but melting again in 2019, 2020, 2021.
                    Am I reading that chart correctly?

                    2017, 2018 are possibly statistical outliers?
                    For the past ten years, the trend has been a slowing rate of shrinkage, even to the point of gains in 2017-2018. It is too early to tell if 2017-2018 are statistical outliers.

                    This abstract concerning Antarctic Sea Ice expansion despite rising CO2 levels and global warming also contradicts the media narrative.

                    By H. A. Singh, L. M. Polvani and P. J. Rasch

                    Abstract
                    A number of physically‐based hypotheses have been proposed to explain the surprising expansion of Antarctic sea ice area (SIA) over the satellite era (1979 to 2015). Here, we use a fully‐coupled state‐of‐the‐art global climate model to show that internal variability alone can produce such multidecadal periods of Antarctic SIA expansion even as atmospheric CO2 increases at observed rates and the planet warms. When our model is started from a relatively warm Southern Ocean state, Antarctic SIA sometimes (in one of three ensemble members) expands over multidecadal time scales at a rate comparable to that over the satellite era. SIA expansion occurs concurrently with rising atmospheric CO2 and warming global surface temperatures, and SIA trends by region and sector resemble those over the satellite era. Our results suggest that internal variability over long time scales in the Southern Ocean region may suffice to explain Antarctic SIA expansion over the satellite era.

                    https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley....9/2019GL083758
                    Last edited by Sid Belzberg; Sunday, 14th August, 2022, 12:36 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tom O'Donnell View Post

                      Start with googling "lithium mining" "child labor".
                      Wow! Sad!!

                      Add to that that the world's leading climate crusher ... China ... which produces 30% of global emissions also is the leading manufacturer of solar panels.



                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Neil Frarey View Post

                        Wow! Sad!!

                        Add to that that the world's leading climate crusher ... China ... which produces 30% of global emissions also is the leading manufacturer of solar panels.


                        Top 15 Countries with the Highest CO2 Emissions per Capita (t) - EU JRC 2020
                        1. Palau — 55.29
                        2. Qatar — 35.64
                        3. Trinidad and Tobago — 21.97
                        4. Bahrain — 21.60
                        5. Kuwait — 20.91
                        6. United Arab Emirates — 20.70
                        7. Brunei Darussalam — 17.95
                        8. Saudi Arabia — 16.96
                        9. Oman — 16.9
                        10. Australia — 15.22
                        11. Canada — 14.43
                        12. Kazakhstan — 14.22
                        13. United States — 13.68
                        14. Turkmenistan — 13.37
                        15. Luxembourg — 13.24
                        By this measure, the U.S. has the thirteenth-highest per capita emissions at 13.68 tons, while Russia is 20th (11.64), Japan is 26th (8.39), China is 28th (8.20), and India is 110th with a mere 1.74 tons per capita.

                        Comment


                        • Thanks for the stats, Dilip.

                          Of course, the issue is absolute no. of tons of emissions per country per minute.......very small countries, even though they have a high per capita emission, are not really the problem.

                          We must shut down emissions from the countries spitting the most no. of tons per minute into the air, and eventually the atmosphere.

                          Of course, IF the argument is true (And I don't think it is), that anthropogenic contribution to greenhouse gases is negligible in comparison with the contribution of greenhouse gasses by a "natural process" that is occurring now, then it is arguable that we, as mankind, ought not to do anything drastic to lower our current quality of life, except to start being creative as to how we are going to live in an environment that is increasingly more and more hostile to mankind, hoping not to become extinct.

                          ~ Bob A (T-S/P)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sid Belzberg View Post

                            This abstract concerning Antarctic Sea Ice expansion despite rising CO2 levels and global warming also contradicts the media narrative.

                            By H. A. Singh, L. M. Polvani and P. J. Rasch

                            Abstract
                            [B]A number of physically‐based hypotheses have been proposed to explain the surprising expansion of Antarctic sea ice area (SIA) over the satellite era (1979 to 2015). Here, we use a fully‐coupled state‐of‐the‐art global climate model to show that internal variability alone can produce such multidecadal periods of Antarctic SIA expansion even as atmospheric CO2 increases at observed rates and the planet warms. When our model is started from a relatively warm Southern Ocean state, Antarctic SIA sometimes (in one of three ensemble members) expands over multidecadal time scales at a rate comparable to that over the satellite era. SIA expansion occurs concurrently with rising atmospheric CO2 and warming global surface temperatures, and SIA trends by region and sector resemble those over the satellite era. Our results suggest that internal variability over long time scales in the Southern Ocean region may suffice to explain Antarctic SIA expansion over the satellite era.
                            In the arctic, the sea ice covering will expand temporarily, but over time the ice is getting thinner, thus the volume of ice is declining. I wonder if something similar is happening in the Antarctic. It isn't clear to me, and I have read the abstract above several times, precisely what it is saying. "Our results suggest that internal variability over long time scales in the Southern Ocean region may suffice to explain Antarctic SIA expansion over the satellite era." This statement suggests to me their study is not really conclusive.

                            Everyone else reports melting in Antarctica, as the science predicts. The message in the following video is much more compelling.

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvFk...el=PBSNewsHour

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Dilip Panjwani View Post

                              Top 15 Countries with the Highest CO2 Emissions per Capita (t) - EU JRC 2020
                              1. Palau — 55.29
                              2. Qatar — 35.64
                              3. Trinidad and Tobago — 21.97
                              4. Bahrain — 21.60
                              5. Kuwait — 20.91
                              6. United Arab Emirates — 20.70
                              7. Brunei Darussalam — 17.95
                              8. Saudi Arabia — 16.96
                              9. Oman — 16.9
                              10. Australia — 15.22
                              11. Canada — 14.43
                              12. Kazakhstan — 14.22
                              13. United States — 13.68
                              14. Turkmenistan — 13.37
                              15. Luxembourg — 13.24
                              By this measure, the U.S. has the thirteenth-highest per capita emissions at 13.68 tons, while Russia is 20th (11.64), Japan is 26th (8.39), China is 28th (8.20), and India is 110th with a mere 1.74 tons per capita.
                              Thanks Dilip I was well aware of that metric.

                              Canada is a nation of urban and suburban consumers with only about 18% of our population as rural.

                              China has about 40% rural population.

                              Comparing per capita CO2 emissions is a moot point at best. At worst ... a very damaging point. It places an unfair burden on developed nations such as Canada, not to mention Luxembourg, ha! They don't even have a large rural population to speak of something around 8%.

                              So how (and why) does China contribute 30% of global emissions???

                              https://rhg.com/research/chinas-emis...ped-countries/

                              Low tech ... if any tech at all ... restrictions on coal burning perhaps??? China pollutes like crazy an insane and unbearable amount of greenhouse gas emissions. If you want to warm up the planet in hurry ... buy or have your stuff produced in China.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Neil Frarey View Post

                                Thanks Dilip I was well aware of that metric.

                                Canada is a nation of urban and suburban consumers with only about 18% of our population as rural.

                                China has about 40% rural population.

                                Comparing per capita CO2 emissions is a moot point at best. At worst ... a very damaging point. It places an unfair burden on developed nations such as Canada, not to mention Luxembourg, ha! They don't even have a large rural population to speak of something around 8%.

                                So how (and why) does China contribute 30% of global emissions???

                                https://rhg.com/research/chinas-emis...ped-countries/

                                Low tech ... if any tech at all ... restrictions on coal burning perhaps??? China pollutes like crazy an insane and unbearable amount of greenhouse gas emissions. If you want to warm up the planet in hurry ... buy or have your stuff produced in China.
                                ... and then ...

                                China 2022 ...

                                https://rhg.com/research/preliminary...tes-for-china/

                                Having cited all that ... China doesn't need to be reigned in. Instead, bring manufacturing back home here to where we have strict manufacturing and transport regulations.

                                K? Larry? CMA comes home???

                                Just sayin'.

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