Democratic Marxism

[Dilip Panjwani]

DM - there will be abolition of "bourgeois" private property - there are articles on this concept.

Bob A

Bob, as the Marxist are delusional that their concept of running businesses is better than that of the bourgeois, let the Marxist government compete against the Bourgeois (instead of snatching away their property), and hope that all the 'mal-treated' workers from the bourgeois businesses will rush to join the Marxist run cesspools of inefficiency... even you should be able to predict that it won't take very long for your 'public' enterprises to end up in a big mess for workers, the consumers and the citizens at large, while the hard and smart working bourgeois and their team of hard and smart working employees (who 'sweat' at work in-order to 'play' when off work) will continue to thrive, keep their consumers happy and not be a burden on the tax-payers...

[Dilip Panjwani]

The USA and the Chilean business community did everything in their power to block Allende on everything. He continued as best he could, being undermined at every turn.

So the typical USA answer was a "coup d'etat"........and lo and behold, Augusto Pinochet takes power, Allende having committed suicide in the Presidential palace, surrounded by coup soldiers, because he knew he would be tortured on being captured.

Bob A

Again, Bob, tell me which of the following was because of undermining by the US:
Allende began his reign by forcibly snatching away land, property and businesses from their owners; these nationalized entities predictably became cesspools of inefficiency, and 'all play & no sweat' led to demand outstripping supply, government getting busy with printing money even while new investments dried up, and inflation reached 600% annually.
You cannot blame the US for any of the above... it is DM which carries the blame...

[Sid Belzberg]

DM - there will be abolition of "bourgeois" private property - there are articles on this concept.

Bob A

Great, bourgeois employers or entrepreneurs whowill have the property abolished because God forbid they create jobs and might turn a profit. The single example you
give of Allende is a joke.

[Bob Armstrong]

DM - there will be abolition of "bourgeois" private property - there are articles on this concept.

Bob A

[Sid Belzberg]

The USA and the Chilean business community did everything in their power to block Allende on everything. He continued as best he could, being undermined at every turn.

So the typical USA answer was a "coup d'etat"........and lo and behold, Augusto Pinochet takes power, Allende having committed suicide in the Presidential palace, surrounded by coup soldiers, because he knew he would be tortured on being captured.

Bob A

Well Bob you omitted to mention that Allende was closely aligned with the USSR from the beginning and just maybe
the USA did not want another nuclear missile base in their
back yard like they had less then ten years prior.
if I were an entrepreneur in Chile and these assholes were trying to steal everything I worked for I would also be resisting.
They also stole huge copper mines owned by US companies.
Theft has consequences.
You said Allende was not “old style USSR communism” when in fact that is exactly what he was. So one asshole got substituted for another in Pinochet.
Take your “abolition of private property” concept and stick it
where the sun never shines!

[Bob Armstrong]

The USA and the Chilean business community did everything in their power to block Allende on everything. He continued as best he could, being undermined at every turn.

So the typical USA answer was a "coup d'etat"........and lo and behold, Augusto Pinochet takes power, Allende having committed suicide in the Presidential palace, surrounded by coup soldiers, because he knew he would be tortured on being captured.

Bob A

[Dilip Panjwani]

By the way, our blindfolded devotee of Marxism cannot see reality:
Allende was 'appointed' by the Chilean Congress after none of the 3 candidates in the 1970 election got a majority; 36.6% had voted for Allende, but 63.4% had voted for somebody else.
Allende began his reign by forcibly snatching away land, property and businesses from their owners; these nationalized entities predictably became cesspools of inefficiency, and 'all play & no sweat' led to demand outstripping supply, government getting busy with printing money even while new investments dried up, and inflation reached 600% annually. By 1973, the economy and the government were paralyzed.
Our blindfolded devotee of Marxism wants us to celebrate this dismal chapter in history!!

[Bob Armstrong]

Democratic Marxism in History

Chile and the Dominican Republic

Part II (Part I above)

17/2/27 – DMGI Fb “Comment” re A Swedish Billionaire Will Award $5 Million For Reimagining Global Governance

“New Global Governance” cannot be dealt with separate from a “New Global Economic System”.

"Communism", as we've seen it practiced in history, has been a failure........a system must not have to abrogate the freedom of the citizens......they must be on board. The best system is Marxism, in my opinion. And the best example has been the socialist government of Salvadore Allende, in Chile (Though short-lived due to the army). It is often claimed, and even written that Allende was a communist. This is not true re partisan politics.....he was always, to my knowledge, part of the Socialist party (Though he clearly was quite amenable to Communism as practiced in Chile). Allende needed the Communists to govern, and reached an accord with them that gave them some power. They used it to bargain with him, to move government policies further left. It is said he had little trouble giving in, since he was likely more left than his party. Here we had a freely elected government, that I believe is the closest to successful implementation of Marxism (Not "facist-communism as we've seen it in the USSR, etc.)

Documentation of USA Covert Actions to Overthrow Democratically-Elected Allende

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https...UnttSLfhRA1nT2

B. Dominican Republic and Marxism

1963 - 7 month revolutionary government, freely elected after long Trujillo dictatorship

Wikipedia - Juan Emilio Bosch Gaviño (30 June 1909, La Vega – 1 November 2001, Santo Domingo) was a politician, historian, short story writer, essayist, educator, and the first democratically elected president of the Dominican Republic for a brief time in 1963. Previously, he had been the leader of the Dominican opposition in exile to the dictatorial regime of Rafael Trujillo for over 25 years. To this day he is remembered as an honest politician^[1][2][3] and regarded as one of the most prominent writers in Dominican literature.^[4][5][6] He founded both the Dominican Revolutionary Party (PRD) in 1939 and the Dominican Liberation Party (PLD) in 1973.

Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI)

Latest Revision - 17/2/27
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---

[Bob Armstrong]

Democratic Marxism in History

Chile and the Dominican Republic



Part I

A. Chile – The Most Successful Implementation of Democratic Marxism


Engels & Marx

Marxism and Individual Liberty

Marxism does not equal no liberty and no democracy. See the statement of the Russian anarchist, Bakunin, below.

"Communism" as practised in the prior USSR, current day China, etc. basically does not trust the citizen.......it uses force to quell dissent, and force compliance......alleged democracy is a sham......never espoused by Marx, just his uninformed alleged followers.

Chile - A Shining Example

In our view, the closest to a nation implementing "Marxism" has been Chile, under Socialist President Salvadore Allende in the 70's. Wikipedia refers to him as a Marxist. We have spoken to Chileans there at the time, and they dispute that he was Communist/Marxist. They say he was Socialist. But he was very amenable to Marxism/Communism. And his was a coalition government with the Communist Party of Chile being a main partner. They always made demands that he go further left in his programs, to get their vote support. Allende was so comfortable with further left that he usually gave in and got their agreement and vote. Thus the blurring of the lines as to how far left Allende really was. And he was elected in a free and fair election. Allende was elected in 1970. Wikipedia notes:

"As a member of the SOCIALIST PARTY (emphasis added), he was a senator, deputy and cabinet minister. He unsuccessfully ran for the presidency in the 1952, 1958, and 1964 elections. In 1970, he won the presidency in a close three-way race. He was elected in a run-off by Congress as no candidate had gained a majority."

He was the President 'til 1973 - 3 successful years of implemented "almost Marxism". Wikipedia has this to say about the coalition government rule:

"As president, Allende adopted a policy of nationalization of industries and collectivization".

This seems to us pretty "almost Marxist", and democratically elected, and lasting three years....a successful example, though the overall effectiveness of his government as "almost Marxist" is always being analyzed.

Chile and the Chilean Army

When elected, Allende did not use the armed forces of the country as a tool of oppression of the people, as have almost all prior cases of alleged "national communism", such as USSR, China, etc. He left then General Augusto Pinochet as head of the armed forces, and did not interfere in their normal operation, since Chile had had 38 years by then of continuous democratic rule. In fact, the "alleged Communists" of the world, at the time, disagreed with Allende on this and ridiculed Allende for being so naive as to not realize that he had to take over the army, and use it to suppress his people and get compliance! What did he expect was going to happen?

End of the Almost Marxist Regime

The army, still under General Pinochet, felt that Chile was being hijacked (despite the earlier democratic vote), and the USA wanted him out, and were willing to assist Pinochet to do this. There was a violent coup by the army. Allende committed suicide after refusing to resign and giving his last Presidential speech. His suicide was a direct result of his being overthrown, and his Presidential palace being surrounded by armed troops who were going to arrest him, if not assassinate him.

Gen. Pinochet became President after Allende, after the successful coup.

The coup took place in 1973 (After 3 full years of successful Socialism/Marxism). Here is how Wikipedia describes this illegal and unconstitutional overthrow of a legitimate "Socialist/almost Marxist" coalition government:

"On 11 September 1973 the military moved to oust Allende in a coup d'état sponsored by the United States Central Intelligence Agency.[2][3][4] As troops surrounded La Moneda Palace, he gave his last speech vowing not to resign.[5] Later that day, Allende shot himself dead with an assault rifle[6] according to an 2011 investigation conducted by a Chilean court with the assistance of international experts.[7]"

Gen. Pinochet appointed himself head of the ruling Military Junta/ President after the successful coup. Here is the aftermath, according to Wikipedia:

"Following Allende's deposition, army General Augusto Pinochet declined to return authority to the civilian government; and Chile became ruled by a military junta that was in power from 1973 to 1990, ending almost 41 years of Chilean democratic rule. The military junta that took over dissolved the Congress of Chile and began a persecution of alleged dissidents, in which thousands of Allende's supporters were murdered."

Evaluation of an "Almost Marxist" Country Example

To our knowledge, there is no other example in history of a successful, democratically elected, "almost Marxist" government. Chile seems to us pretty "almost Marxist" and democratically elected, and lasted three years. Unlike the "alleged communist" countries of USSR, China, etc., Allende did not use the armed forces of the country as a tool of oppression of the people. Alleged Communist countries did, and still do, obtain subservience to their imposed government by this method, where elections are/were a sham. This is a total misinterpretation of Marxism, world-wide, if there ever was one... original Marxism has individual freedom and democracy at its core, when properly implemented. Allende's Chile is a beacon of non-use of force to establish an "almost Marxist" society, despite it having lasted just 3 years.

Part II below

Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI)

Original Publication - 16/2/7
Author – Bob Armstrong
Copyright – Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI) - 2016

[Dilip Panjwani]

Casey Comrad Post

"Cooperation", not legal theft nor brutal suppression of entrepreneurship, embodied in Marxism...
Don't keep on hoping readers will misinterpret what Darwin said, Mr. Armstrong...

[Bob Armstrong]

Casey Comrad Post

[Bob Armstrong]

Democratic Marxism
(Started: 24/1/3)

Weekly Overview

Notes:

1. The “Weekly Overview” of the topic is posted for the benefit of new members who may have come in between the “Weekly Overviews”. It provides an executive summary of the issue for new viewers.
2. The Stats of participation are important to allow all to determine the extent of continuing interest. For thread originators/responders, they are important to see if the interest no longer warrants the labour. Or alternatively, they show that those of us discussing it are drawing in more participants, because they have begun to see the importance of our topic.

A. Statistics

Week # 1 (24/1 /3 – 7 [5 days])

(Sometimes Adjusted for no. of days)

A. Weekly Stats:
.....................................................2023 Average
Last Week's......Prior Week's........Views/Day
Views/Day........Views/Day.............(1 wk.)

…19........................n/a.......................19


................................................2023 Average

Last Week's.....Prior Week's......Responses/Day

Responses/Day....Resp./Day.......(1 wk.).

........1.......................n/a........................1


B. Analysis of Last Week's Stats

Last week's stats are showing a slow rise from when the thread started. We will see if this continues as CT'ers become aware of the thread, and find the topic of the thread of interest.

Goal of this Thread

• To make clear what Democratic Marxism is, and what it is not (Old-style USSR Communism)
• To provide materials that help CT'ers analyze the pluses and minuses of DM.

Additional Notes:

1. The goal of this thread is not to try to beat opposing views into oblivion. Political economy spans the spectrum. Every position is entitled to post as it sees fit, regardless of the kind of, and amount of, postings by other positions. What is wanted is serious consideration of all posts........then you decide among the many competing political philosophies.

2. I, Bob A, personally, as the thread originator, am trying to post a new response at least twice per week, but admit my busy schedule means I may sometimes fall short on this. So it is necessary that a number of other CT'ers post responses here somewhat regularly as well.



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[Dilip Panjwani]

The point of Post # 4 above was that those who most condemn Democratic Marxism have never read Marx or Engels.

Dilip has read them; I congratulate him for getting to know his opposition.

It is too bad that Dilip's judgment is so off.

Bob A (DM)

It is your judgement which is so badly broken that it is non-existent, Bob. Mine, on Marxism, is in keeping with that of the vast majority around the world, who are wise enough to understand that what Marx and Engels have written is a pile of junk. You are trying to project the Marxists as an elite, learned group capable of speaking multiple languages and boasting of having read the ramblings of Marx and Engels, while in reality, the voters for DM would simply consist of those who are incapable of looking after themselves and want the 'government' to rob/restrict someone else to give them stuff they would not deserve...

[Bob Armstrong]

The point of Post # 4 above was that those who most condemn Democratic Marxism have never read Marx or Engels.

Dilip has read them; I congratulate him for getting to know his opposition.

It is too bad that Dilip's judgment is so off.

Bob A (DM)

[Dilip Panjwani]

Most of the US barely reads English at a sixth grade level but somehow think they know Marxism is bad without reading a word Marx or Engels wrote.

Bob A (DM)

O learned Marxist... please do not denigrate others based on their language skills... it is not essential to know 10 languages to be wise! Growing up in India, I knew a lot of people, mainly women, who were illiterate, the majority of whom have been the amongst the nicest persons and the wisest persons I have ever met!! And by the way, I have read both Marx and Engels...turned out to be a total waste of time...