Democratic Marxism

[Bob Armstrong]

Altruism is putting your self-interest, which can be legitimate, after a benefit to another. It is simply being generous of spirit.

And sometimes some benefit may, at the same time, be visited on the altruist. Certainly the altruist in a situation is entitled to feel self-satisfaction that they have contributed in some way to society.

Capitalism, on the other hand, is self-interest run amok.....charge "what the market will bear" (Not a "fair charge" in the marketplace). That is why so many laws are aimed at restraint of unfair business practice. Capitalism, otherwise, leaves a trail of collateral damage.

Much better to reform the "cause" of society's problems, rather than try to contain the "consequences".

Bob A (Dem. Marxist)

[Dilip Panjwani]

Your romanticized view of wealth redistribution overlooks a fundamental flaw in human nature: greed doesn't vanish with government control; it merely changes hands from businessmen to politicians. History isn't kind to your utopia; it's littered with the failures of such systems, where the promise of equality morphs into the reality of universal poverty, except for those in power. Believing that billionaires willingly want more taxes to support a bloated, inefficient system is naive. They navigate these waters to further their interests, often advocating for policies that ultimately benefit them under the guise of altruism. Your argument doesn't champion the entrepreneur spirit; it underestimates the pervasive nature of greed, now cloaked in political power, leading to the very chaos you naively seek to avoid. Your stance isn't just broken; it's dangerously ignorant of the lessons history has painfully taught us

Hi Sid,
The guy you are responding to keeps on vomiting nonsense combined with very foul language, is a disgrace on chesstalk, and as you know, others also have wanted him barred from it.
Bob A., on the other hand, is worth having conversation with, if only as an opposing lawyer in a court of law! There is hope that he would understand the difference between 'self-interest' and 'greed': The Scottish moral philosopher known as “the father of modern capitalism,” Adam Smith, wrote in The Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations that, “it is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest.” And Ayn Rand very smartly stated: 'Altruism is a sophisticated form of selfishness'. Even the Bible considers nothing wrong with Christians having self-interest (Wikipedia explains this well)!
Self-interest turns into greed when one breaches the Natural Law to serve self-interest.

[Sid Belzberg]

I bolded the critical question in your post.

"why would any sensible person (not a cheater) want to sweat all day to support these huge numbers of benefit recipients for very little post-tax income for himself"

If you have to ask that question, then you expose yourself as the greedy Libertarian that you are. But if you were a true entrepreneur, you would never ask this question. You would simply go on being what you are, the entrepreneur, and make your first $1 billion after which Bob G.'s wealth tax would limit your gains to this amount.

Would that make you happy? YES YES YES!!!!

You made your billion $ and you did it doing what you love to do. Did you stop to think about supporting other people who aren't as ambitions as you? NO NO NO!

ONLY IF YOU ARE A GREEDY BASTARD WHO WANTS EVERYTHING FOR HIMSELF / HERSELF WOULD YOU STOP AND THINK ABOUT THAT!

And for this reason, your entire logic is broken. You don't even understand the people you claim to represent, the entrepreneur class.

And this is why even the top billionaires want the government to tax them more. They WANT the less ambitious to be supported by government! They WANT those supported people to be buying their products / services!

And this is why Libertarianism will NEVER make it as the system of government!

Fool.

Your romanticized view of wealth redistribution overlooks a fundamental flaw in human nature: greed doesn't vanish with government control; it merely changes hands from businessmen to politicians. History isn't kind to your utopia; it's littered with the failures of such systems, where the promise of equality morphs into the reality of universal poverty, except for those in power. Believing that billionaires willingly want more taxes to support a bloated, inefficient system is naive. They navigate these waters to further their interests, often advocating for policies that ultimately benefit them under the guise of altruism. Your argument doesn't champion the entrepreneur spirit; it underestimates the pervasive nature of greed, now cloaked in political power, leading to the very chaos you naively seek to avoid. Your stance isn't just broken; it's dangerously ignorant of the lessons history has painfully taught us

[Pargat Perrer]

Let us see what the REALITY is, Bob:
Marxism would guarantee free food, free housing with heat and water and electricity, free schooling, free commuting, free medical care, free medicines, free dental care, free nursing homes, some free basic clothing, free internet, in addition to some basic pocket change... quite a good deal if you still have all your time to party and play with friends in the same boat! And with all the entrepreneurs gone, there won't be many jobs around anyway, so the numbers getting the free stuff 'legitimately' will be huge. And why would any sensible person (not a cheater) want to sweat all day to support these huge numbers of benefit recipients for very little post-tax income for himself to pay for all the stuff in draconian inflation (an inevitable occurrence with poor productivity of 'government run' businesses, sparse numbers of entrepreneur led production units, combined with naturally wasteful consumption of free goods and services)... so the vicious cycle will go on till the country ends up in chaos, like Argentina and Venezuela and Chile and the Soviet Union did!
So, when your friend Dilip says that Marxism is broken, he is not warping reality, he is just laying out the bare facts...

I bolded the critical question in your post.

"why would any sensible person (not a cheater) want to sweat all day to support these huge numbers of benefit recipients for very little post-tax income for himself"

If you have to ask that question, then you expose yourself as the greedy Libertarian that you are. But if you were a true entrepreneur, you would never ask this question. You would simply go on being what you are, the entrepreneur, and make your first $1 billion after which Bob G.'s wealth tax would limit your gains to this amount.

Would that make you happy? YES YES YES!!!!

You made your billion $ and you did it doing what you love to do. Did you stop to think about supporting other people who aren't as ambitions as you? NO NO NO!

ONLY IF YOU ARE A GREEDY BASTARD WHO WANTS EVERYTHING FOR HIMSELF / HERSELF WOULD YOU STOP AND THINK ABOUT THAT!

And for this reason, your entire logic is broken. You don't even understand the people you claim to represent, the entrepreneur class.

And this is why even the top billionaires want the government to tax them more. They WANT the less ambitious to be supported by government! They WANT those supported people to be buying their products / services!

And this is why Libertarianism will NEVER make it as the system of government!

Fool.

[Dilip Panjwani]

Social Assistance

The generous community response to individuals in the community who are UNABLE to be financially self-sufficient (for very many different reasons), is to provide them with some modest community money monthly so they do not have to be homeless and starve. This is accomplished through taxation and benefits distribution. This is generally at the "poverty level", not a "living income" level.

The law is that if an applicant is ABLE to find work, given their work resume, training, capacity, etc., then they must provide proof of ongoing searching for employment. Failure to do this terminates their right to benefit.

Is it difficult for the system to root out "cheaters" - those capable of working, but unwilling to search with good intention? Yup
........and do people like Dilip cast this relatively small subset as if they were the MAJORITY of benefit recipients? Yup
......And does Dilip then say the system is broken, and is unfair to the hard-working taxpayer.......Yup.

........One should tell the truth about reality, not warp it to be able to support some political saw horse.

Bob A (We are responsible for our brothers/sisters, and especially the more vulnerable)

Let us see what the REALITY is, Bob:
Marxism would guarantee free food, free housing with heat and water and electricity, free schooling, free commuting, free medical care, free medicines, free dental care, free nursing homes, some free basic clothing, free internet, in addition to some basic pocket change... quite a good deal if you still have all your time to party and play with friends in the same boat! And with all the entrepreneurs gone, there won't be many jobs around anyway, so the numbers getting the free stuff 'legitimately' will be huge. And why would any sensible person (not a cheater) want to sweat all day to support these huge numbers of benefit recipients for very little post-tax income for himself to pay for all the stuff in draconian inflation (an inevitable occurrence with poor productivity of 'government run' businesses, sparse numbers of entrepreneur led production units, combined with naturally wasteful consumption of free goods and services)... so the vicious cycle will go on till the country ends up in chaos, like Argentina and Venezuela and Chile and the Soviet Union did!
So, when your friend Dilip says that Marxism is broken, he is not warping reality, he is just laying out the bare facts...

[Bob Armstrong]

Social Assistance

The generous community response to individuals in the community who are UNABLE to be financially self-sufficient (for very many different reasons), is to provide them with some modest community money monthly so they do not have to be homeless and starve. This is accomplished through taxation and benefits distribution. This is generally at the "poverty level", not a "living income" level.

The law is that if an applicant is ABLE to find work, given their work resume, training, capacity, etc., then they must provide proof of ongoing searching for employment. Failure to do this terminates their right to benefit.

Is it difficult for the system to root out "cheaters" - those capable of working, but unwilling to search with good intention? Yup
........and do people like Dilip cast this relatively small subset as if they were the MAJORITY of benefit recipients? Yup
......And does Dilip then say the system is broken, and is unfair to the hard-working taxpayer.......Yup.

........One should tell the truth about reality, not warp it to be able to support some political saw horse.

Bob A (We are responsible for our brothers/sisters, and especially the more vulnerable)

[Dilip Panjwani]

I disagree on society being dependent on charity, even of billionaires, and Religions.

Basics (Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs) must be the responsibility of the "Community".......that all have their basic needs met, even when their contribution, maybe for many reasons, is limited.

The main way the Community does this is by passing laws for progressive taxation......those who benefit most from the system, should have the most obligation to support it.


Bob A (Democratic Marxist)

So those who work and study hard in their childhood and youth, and continue doing that in their adult life, should have to support all those who prefer to party and play throughout their lives!
And they have to do this not by being charitable, but by getting forcibly robbed!!
And Bob wishes to celebrate Marx and his cronies for suggesting the above...

[Bob Armstrong]

Some Writings are Milestones in Human History



176th Anniversary of the Communist Manifesto (February 21, 2024)

"February 21 marks the 176th anniversary of the publication of the first edition of the Communist Manifesto, written in 1848 by Karl Marx and his life-long friend and follower Frederick Engels. The Communist Manifesto became the most read and sought after pamphlet in the world. To this day, the attitude towards this pamphlet distinguishes those who are revolutionary because they use Marxism as a guide to action, from those who are hidebound and dogmatic and have another aim."

https://cpcml.ca/240220-176th-annive...1Ibtwww3rdQEN0

Bob A (Dem. Marxist)

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Pargat:

I find I agree with a lot of your analysis.....is it: "Great minds think alike.......or............(fill it in)."

But I disagree on society being dependent on charity, even of billionaires, and Religions, though I give them full credit when they do help out.

Basics (Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs) must be the responsibility of the "Community".......that all have their basic needs met, even when their contribution, maybe for many reasons, is limited.

The main way the Community does this is by passing laws for progressive taxation......those who benefit most from the system, should have the most obligation to support it.

My Future Prediction:

We will have two years (2024-5) of relative stability, despite all the firestorms present, and a somewhat wobbly world economy.

But around Jan. 1 of 2026, the sh*t will start hitting the fan.......and the main cause will be the failure to slow down the rate of negative climate change, and to reverse it before "tipping points" are reached for our Earthly eco-structure. There will be a ripple effect throughout all areas of human life.

The Naturalist Negative Climate Change people will once again say: You are going to join those in the dustbin of history who have "cried wolf".

I can only say: "I hope I am wrong".

I see the going viral of Democratic Marxism as our one chance to avoid what is coming, and, the coming, eventual extinction of the human species by suicide.

Bob A (Democratic Marxist)

[Pargat Perrer]

......
Nobody needs to do anything to satisfy the rich ....

I do agree with that statement.

The rich need to be satisfied OF THEIR OWN ACCORD once a certain level of wealth has been achieved. Bob Gillanders has proposed a $1 Billion level beyond which wealth will be taxed at 100%. It would be better if the world's billionaires would OF THEIR OWN ACCORD donate all their wealth beyond that level to be dispursed to projects like sanitation and clean drinking water, renewable energy especially in 3rd world nations, ending the real estate crisis in developed nations, etc.

It is being noted that major cities now have so many empty office buildings in their downtowns ... that could be turned into low-cost housing. Of course that would take capital investment ... this is one example where billionaires could make a difference. It should actually flow back to them as increased economic activity is triggered.

There are increasing rumblings of an oncoming commercial real estate (CRE) crisis greater than the 2008 mortgage crisis about to unfold later this year ... and it is now looking like interest rates are going to stay high for some time. There is growing fear in the entire real estate sector.

[Bob Armstrong]

Democratic Marxism
(Started: 24/1/3)

Weekly Overview



Notes:

1. The “Weekly Overview” of the topic is posted for the benefit of new members who may have come in between the “Weekly Overviews”. It provides an executive summary of the issue for new viewers.
2. The Stats of participation are important to allow all to determine the extent of continuing interest. For thread originators/responders, they are important to see if the interest no longer warrants the labour. Or alternatively, they show that those of us discussing it are drawing in more participants, because they have begun to see the importance of our topic.

A. Statistics

1. Weekly Stats:

Week # 7 (24/2/12 – 18 [7 days])

(Sometimes Adjusted for no. of days)


.....................................................2024 Average
Last Week's......Prior Week's........Views/Day
Views/Day........Views/Day.............(7 wks.)

…41........................35.......................33


................................................2024 Average

Last Week's.....Prior Week's......Responses/Day

Responses/Day....Resp./Day.......(7 wks.).

........3.......................3.......................3


2. Analysis of Last Week's Stats

Last week's stats are running pretty close to both the week prior and to the 2024 stats so far. This indicates a continued steady interest in DM from when the thread started. CT'ers are interested in learning more about DM, and from the discussion of government from the DM perspective.

Also, that the thread has had 3 posts per week on average, from the start, shows a consistently active thread.

This thread is an opportunity to learn something about the political system known as “Democratic Marxism”! It is also an opportunity to question DM in a good and safe forum, where we try to respect the right of all CT'ers to have their own analysis, and to be entitled to put it forward for consideration, even if differing from DM.

There is also discussion of current political affairs from the different perspectives of various participants.

B. Goal of this Thread

• To make clear what Democratic Marxism is, and what it is not (Old-style USSR Communism)
• To provide materials that help CT'ers analyze the pluses and minuses of DM.

Additional Notes:

1. The goal of this thread is not to try to beat opposing views into oblivion. Political economy spans the spectrum. Every position is entitled to post as it sees fit, regardless of the kind of, and amount of, postings by other positions. What is wanted is serious consideration of all posts........then you decide among the many competing political philosophies.

2. I, Bob A, personally, as the thread originator, am trying to post a new response at least twice per week, but admit my busy schedule means I may sometimes fall short on this. So it is necessary that a number of other CT'ers post responses here somewhat regularly as well.

Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI)

Author: Bob Armstrong, DMGI Coordinator

Most Recent Revision: 24/2/19

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[Dilip Panjwani]

What nonsense!
Nobody needs to do anything to satisfy the rich, and nobody needs to make it difficult for the poor to feed themselves... if only the 'governments' would stop committing these sins by the stupid laws they create!

[Bob Armstrong]

[Neil Frarey]

Copyright – Democratic Marxist Global Institute – 2020

Bob A. ... the OUTDATED idiologue ... LOOL!

Such the click bait pretender you have been exposed to be.

[Bob Armstrong]

A DMGI 2020 Perspective on

The Canadian Manifesto for an Independent Socialist Canada (The “Waffle” Manifesto [WM] – 1969)

[Part II; Part I above]

The Father's Day Manifesto (By DMGI)

This is a short one-page discussion paper. It avoids theoretical jargon. It sets out theory only in broad general terms. It emphasizes initial strategy for evolutionary implementation of Democratic Marxist decentralized local governing. It encourages that this strategy is achievable. It only deals with “first step” and does not attempt to convince of some long, drawn-out “grand plan”.

The test will be how the working person responds when presented with the DMGI Manifesto to read. And reading it is a prerequisite before buying a DMGI membership, or a membership in any local partisan Democratic Marxist Party. We will see if it is well-received.

We will reproduce this short document here for convenience:

_________________________________________________________________________



The Father's Day Manifesto : A Human Government Alternative Identified

(Democratic Marxism - Elaborated by the DM Global Institute – An originating document and a Recommended Platform)

1. Ownership of the Means of Production

a. Generally, Worker majority, at least.


b. Worker Cooperatives will be favoured by tax incentives, over legal corporations.


c. Abolition of Capital investing.

2. Subsidiarity

Most local societal civil unit (Likely cities/towns/etc.) have ALL power, following the Principle of Subsidiarity. This will be done by the higher political units downloading their authority.

3.Democratic

Only established through free elections; forcing populations into a Democratic Marxist Governance at the point of a gun is totally opposed by DM.

4.Authentication

Global local Democratic Marxist Parties are free to choose whatever platforms meet their needs. But local parties may seek an “Authentication” from the DM Global Institute that their policy in total, at least “generally”, complies with the DM Global Institute's model Democratic Marxist Platform. The DM Global Institute may suggest revisions as a condition of the granting of “Authentication”.

5.Strategy

Intermediate governments are the first to be targeted (E.g. States in USA; Provinces/Territories in Canada; etc.) The main platform of the DM Parties at this level will be three:


a. to set up the identifiable Local Political Units (LPU);
b. to download all the provincial powers possible to the LPU's;
c. the intermediate structure will remaining only as a coordinator/facilitator, to carry out instructions at that level for LPU's who need to cooperate to achieve a goal, they cannot get on their own as a small power centre.

6.Evolution

This foundation platform for Democratic Marxism is an evolving document. Elaboration of new concepts & strategies, and corrections, will all be required to keep DM relevant. The DM Global Institute will be charged with this task. One of the methods for seeking evolution, is to manage a Facebook “Democratic Marxist Global Forum” (
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2045711862207056/), open to all, where respectful and informative debate on all things political will assist the DMGI.
.
Note: Contact Us: Via our Fb Page: Democratic Marxism - Global:
https://www.facebook.com/Democratic-Marxism-Global-748579292265552/?modal=admin_todo_tour


Democratic Marxist Global Institute
19/6/15
Author: Bob Armstrong, Interim Coordinator, DM Vetting Committee Interim Chairperson
Reviser: Bob Armstrong – 20/12/2

Copyright – Democratic Marxist Global Institute - 2019
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI)

Author: Bob Armstrong, Interim Coordinator, DM Vetting Committee Interim Chair

Original – 20/10/28

Revision – 23/10/30 – Bob Armstrong

Most Recent Postings:

24/2/15: CT.DM; DMPO; DM-G; DMGF; TRN

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Fb Group: Democratic Marxist Global Forum

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P.O. Box 3246,

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N4L 1A5

Website:

In development


Copyright – Democratic Marxist Global Institute – 2020