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Dark Knight / Le Chevalier Noir
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---- Nous avons besoin d'un traduction français!
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Also, though Polievre may have Libertarian leanings, he will not replace Canadian Conservatism with some form of Libertarianism - again, don't hold your breath Libertarians!
Bob A
Hi Bob,
This seems more than the usual Canadian conservatism:
Kenneth Megill, in his seminal work on Democratic Marxism, The New Democratic Theory, speaks kindly of Lenin, but castigates Stalin for the fall of USSR-style communism into dictatorship, the police state, and using breach of human rights to "keep order".
However, Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI) sees this differently. We blame Lenin for creating the Marxian heresy: USSR-style Communism.
The Leninist “Vanguard of the Proletariat”
The reason DMGI rejects Lenin is his "Elitism".
Lenin, despite much of his writing, disparaged the working class as ignorant, and incapable of revolution. It is Lenin, not Marx, who invented the concept "Vanguard of the Proletariat". Marx is turning over in his grave at Lenin's claim to be elaborating true Marxist thought.
Marx believed in the capacity of the ordinary working person to foment revolution......the anti-democratic and elitist USSR-style Communism is totally against Marx.
Note what Wikipedia says about this deformed concept of the "Vanguard of the Proletariat" (The Elitist and Expert Revolutionaries, whose role it is to "enlighten" the ignorant and deceivable worker, who is not to be trusted with the revolution):
"In its first phase, the vanguard party would exist for two reasons. Firstly, it would protect Marxism from outside corruption from other ideas as well as advance its concepts. Secondly, it would educate the proletariat in Marxism in order to cleanse them of their "false individual consciousness" and instill the revolutionary "class consciousness" in them.
Our task is not to champion the degrading of the revolutionary to the level of an amateur, but to raise the amateurs to the level of revolutionaries.[4]
If the party is successful in this goal, on the eve of revolution, a critical mass of the working class population would be prepared to usher forth the transformation of society. Furthermore, a great number of them, namely their most dedicated members, would belong to the party cadres as professional revolutionaries, and would be elected to leadership positions by the mass party membership. Thus the organization would quickly include the entire working class.[5]"
Based on this concept, after the violent Russian Revolution occurred, "the Vanguard of the Proletariat", in the observations of the DMGI, turned the revolutionary guns on the untrustworthy ordinary worker, who could not be trusted at the ballot box in future, to vote for the Vanguard Party, and implement the goals of the revolution. A Police State was necessary to allow for the "education of the ignorant worker", and use of breach of civil rights was quite fine to keep order in the interim.
This is NOT the implementation of Marxian thought about revolution and the ordinary working person!
So it is the position of our elaboration of Democratic Marxism that the whole USSR-style Communism, starting right with Lenin, though perfected by Stalin, is a gross deformity of "socialism".
DM emphasizes the necessity of a multi-party state and the trust of the worker to re-elect Democratic Marxist Parties across the globe, in order to implement the revolution totally legally!
Of course, should the worker fail in this, at the ballot box, then capitalist degradation of the worker will continue apace, until, as Marx maintained, the oppression is so bad, the worker sees that his/her only way out is violent revolution against the capitalist system.
b. Group: Democratic Marxist Global Forum: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2045...ref=nf&__xts__[0]=68.ARB5MaP7fzlN9ItgmSkMWzv60Rd9mIxsQIkIgIa6_Guh2MGR6mV82GdH-IxgmiiVaJcZ-NLi7Cz46VX0nn78clmPjd-pttzlYPR9dmEubTBnBdnGohd0bl3Fy4k02cb3BVHNVOcfjANvEEUCRw6k1IZDDsZV6l9V1Id5_NomySGWmEpA3Inygttyrt3-jYH1m1M50W3d94tVElUVaZ-SrM-WZ4BkYEj0ZYF5Y5X2d7KRG_MQJtND8fXyDSkU0F1I4FVHkI_eoiyOazUgCRS0lmfetiENOGsaJPb6MfuHzQ92-u7gMI_E8888fus
Despite Argentina, I think Libertarians should not hold their breath about their next national breakthrough! In fact, in the longer run, the shortcomings of Miele Libertarianism will be most concerning. Pargat has already noted current issues re the situation of the vulnerable under Miele's austerity.
Also, though Polievre may have Libertarian leanings, he will not replace Canadian Conservatism with some form of Libertarianism - again, don't hold your breath Libertarians!
And Bob, never hesitate to respond thoughtfully to whichever post you feel like responding, despite some troll, to whom hardly anyone responds, asking you not to... Have fun and advance your understanding of Libertarianism!
Last edited by Dilip Panjwani; Monday, 29th April, 2024, 07:03 PM.
1. Democratic Marxism
2. Libertarianism
3. Depopulation/ World Control Allegation
a. Climate Change as a strategy
b. COVID-19 as a strategy
c. Medication Abuse as a strategy
4. Deep State Allegation
Seems I've got everybody on all sides upset with me for something..........
I must, then, I guess, be doing something RIGHT!
Bob A
Bob, Never hesitate to post well thought of views ... even if some troll asks you to stop...
All the best!
The “Weekly Overview” of the topic is posted for the benefit of new members who may have come in between the “Weekly Overviews”. It provides an executive summary of the issue for new viewers.
The Stats of participation are important to allow all to determine the extent of continuing interest. For thread originators/responders, they are important to see if the interest no longer warrants the labour. Or alternatively, they show that those of us discussing it are drawing in more participants, because they have begun to see the importance of our topic
A. Statistics
1. Weekly Stats:
Week # 17 (24/4/22 – 28 [7 days])
(Sometimes Adjusted for no. of days)
.....................................................2024 Average
Last Week's......Prior Week's........Views/Day Views/Day........Views/Day.............(17 wks.)
Last week's stats took off again and ran well ahead of the prior week's, and those of 2024 so far.
This was spurred by the introduction of a number of new topics into the DM thread, in terms of DM response to them. More discussion/increased participation does happen when a current controversial issue is brought into the thread.
The thread involves discussion of current political affairs from the different perspectives of the various participants.
Fundamentally, though, this thread is an “educational” thread about something that may not be that attractive to some CT'ers. Nonetheless, the stats for this thread (Per day: Views – 28; Responses - 3) are good, and not that far below many other active threads in the Non-chess forum.
The stats do show that CT'ers are interested in learning more about DM, and about government from the DM perspective. This thread is an opportunity to learn something about the political system known as “Democratic Marxism”! It is also an opportunity to question DM in a good and safe forum, where we try to respect the right of all CT'ers to have their own analysis, and to be entitled to put it forward for consideration, even if differing from DM.
Note: I, as originator/main poster, am now just posting about 1 DM discussion paper per week, near the start of the week. But I do try to respond to response questions, and introduce new current topics when they seem appropriate. So, overall, the stats should be expected to slowly come down a bit.
B. Goal of this Thread
To make clear what Democratic Marxism is, and what it is not (Old-style USSR Communism)
To provide materials that help CT'ers analyze the pluses and minuses of DM.
Additional Notes:
1. The goal of this thread is not to try to beat opposing views into oblivion. Political economy spans the spectrum. Every position is entitled to post as it sees fit, regardless of the kind of, and amount of, postings by other positions. What is wanted is serious consideration of all posts........then you decide among the many competing political philosophies.
2. CT'ers are welcome to post responses here regularly, in addition to our core group of very active responders.
1. Democratic Marxism
2. Libertarianism
3. Depopulation/ World Control Allegation
a. Climate Change as a strategy
b. COVID-19 as a strategy
c. Medication Abuse as a strategy
4. Deep State Allegation
Seems I've got everybody on all sides upset with me for something..........
I must, then, I guess, be doing something RIGHT!
Bob A
Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Monday, 29th April, 2024, 10:49 AM.
All laws are based on the moral/ethical dicta: treat others as you would have them treat you; Help the stranger; do no harm.
The plethora of laws are to make clear and precise what not to do......because.........failing to follow the law has great risk of harm to others .......so we have signal lights to lower the risk of accidents. Laws must be precise and clear, since it is a successful argument that one cannot be convicted where the law is "vague".
As a lawyer, I predict a plethora of cases involving all kinds of citizens' different interpretations of situations trying to apply your one proposed Natural Law. It is because, though the general concept is clear, its application on the ground is vague, and subject to all kinds of competing arguments as to its application in a particular situation. The systems of police, lawyers, judges and prisons will be overwhelmed.
I believe this is why the other versions of Libertarianism we have investigated, have not repealed all laws, and make no mention of the fundamental, to you, Natural Law.
Bob A
Bob A, I am no longer going to respond to any of Dilip's posts. I have successfully repudiated all his notions, and have shown that the two pillars of his Dreamlane Libertarianism, namely (1) Natural Law, and (2) easy access to literally ANYONE who wants to start a business, are both unworkable.
Bob, you have started 4 ongoing threads in this forum. All 4 have become poisoned by Dilip and his trolling for his Dreamland Libertarianism, and you have allowed this to happen. For the record, I went back a little bit (but not all the way) in all 4 threads. Here are Dilip's trolling posts in the threads where they should not be:
Life thread: post 106, 109, 119, 130, 140, 142, 150...
You have allowed this to happen by granting far too much legitimacy to Dilip's views. Libertarians are about 1% of the population, and supporters of Dilip's brand of Libertarianism are about 1% of that, so do the math and realize where you are going wrong.
Now you are having to resort to trying to channel all discussion of LIbertarianism to this thread, the only thread of the 4 that it should exist. And you can't do it because Dilip just keeps on trolling.
Just stop responding to him. Let him troll all he likes, no one is buying his miracle cure that isn't a cure for anything except Dilip's angst problems.
Bob, you constantly appeal to the lemming-like majority, Here are some lessons to be learned from the last four years
1) People would rather be in the majority than be right.
2)People would rather commit to being wrong than admit they were wrong. -
3)The human mind can be programmed quickly and relatively easily, for better or for worse -
4)One of the few things that rivals fear of death is fear of societal abandonment.
5)When push comes to shove, all morality is thrown out the window in the name of the greater good.
Well put, Sid. That is why I say that we cannot use democracy to steal away individual freedom, and even Bob realizes that democratically chosen governments can amend the constitution and its human rights laws, in order to steal away individual freedom. The only 'governance' system which no one can have any objections to (though some may troll it), is the enforcement of the Natural Law...
This thread has gotten itself into a lot of controversy........beyond the workability of Democratic Marxism.....
An examination of Libertarianism has brought forward the many disparate streams of this wild west Capitalist system, which has just recently emerged from the shadows. And there is serious debate about the workability of the theoretical versions, and the one's now on the ground (Argentina).
We are also delving into the "fact" alleged by some of an "Evil Coalition" that seeks world depopulation, and then dictatorial control of the humans left. Part of their strategy involved the COVID-19 pandemic, and now the alleged, in their view, false climate emergency.
So I'd like to raise another issue, which is classed by the majority, as just another "conspiracy theory": Deep State
"A deep state is a type of government made up of potentially secret and unauthorized networks of power operating independently of a state's political leadership in pursuit of their own agenda and goals. In popular usage, the term carries overwhelmingly negative connotations." Wikipedia
The basic concern is that democracy is being neutralized. No matter which party on the political spectrum becomes government, it is not their agenda that will end up being implemented. Rather it will still be the agenda of this somewhat permanent "back government" that continues on in the Bureaucracy (And other continuing independent non-government power networks associated with it).
Bob, you constantly appeal to the lemming-like majority, Here are some lessons to be learned from the last four years
1) People would rather be in the majority than be right.
2)People would rather commit to being wrong than admit they were wrong. -
3)The human mind can be programmed quickly and relatively easily, for better or for worse -
4)One of the few things that rivals fear besides death is the fear of societal abandonment.
5)When push comes to shove, all morality is thrown out the window in the name of the greater good.
You appear to be living proof of this mindset.
The questions you ask about the CIA and their attempts to get lemming-like compliance out of the population were brought to light in US Senate investigations in 1975.
The CIA's MKULTRA program was a covert, illegal human research program run by the Central Intelligence Agency of the United States, which started in the early 1950s and "officially halted in 1973". The program was designed to develop techniques for use in interrogations and to control human behaviors
The experiments conducted under MKULTRA involved numerous methods to manipulate individual mental states and alter brain functions, including the surreptitious administration of drugs and other chemicals, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, isolation, verbal and sexual abuse, as well as various forms of torture. The aim was to find a reliable way to control individuals.
The existence of MKULTRA was first brought to public attention in 1975 through the investigations of the Church Committee of the U.S. Senate and a presidential commission known as the Rockefeller Commission. The revelation of MKULTRA prompted a significant public outcry over the ethics and legality of such experiments, largely conducted without the knowledge or consent of the subjects, sparking intense controversy about the extent and nature of government-sanctioned abuses that sadly continue to this day despite these revelations.
Last edited by Sid Belzberg; Sunday, 28th April, 2024, 12:29 PM.
This thread has gotten itself into a lot of controversy........beyond the workability of Democratic Marxism.....
An examination of Libertarianism has brought forward the many disparate streams of this wild west Capitalist system, which has just recently emerged from the shadows. And there is serious debate about the workability of the theoretical versions, and the one's now on the ground (Argentina).
We are also delving into the "fact" alleged by some of an "Evil Coalition" that seeks world depopulation, and then dictatorial control of the humans left. Part of their strategy involved the COVID-19 pandemic, and now the alleged, in their view, false climate emergency.
So I'd like to raise another issue, which is classed by the majority, as just another "conspiracy theory": Deep State
"A deep state is a type of government made up of potentially secret and unauthorized networks of power operating independently of a state's political leadership in pursuit of their own agenda and goals. In popular usage, the term carries overwhelmingly negative connotations." Wikipedia
The basic concern is that democracy is being neutralized. No matter which party on the political spectrum becomes government, it is not their agenda that will end up being implemented. Rather it will still be the agenda of this somewhat permanent "back government" that continues on in the Bureaucracy (And other continuing independent non-government power networks associated with it).
Hey Bob,
Your friend, the nasty troll, is boiling away that despite his bullshit postings, Peter McKillop and you, and nearly everyone including pre-teenage children, can clearly understand that fair competition, like a game of chess, can result in some harm to the loser, despite the competition having been conducted without using unfair means, and that is why the Natural Law demands: Do no harm to others, except in fair competition; that has been the basis of human society in all corners of this world evolving! This nasty troll must be feeling very lonely in his trolling (against Sid and me and at times against Peter and many others, and now even against you!) ... poor guy...
LOL there is nothing for me to be "boiling away" about, your Dreamland LIbertarianism is nowhere near reality anywhere in the world and no one will ever want it.
You defined "fair competition" as using no means that harms others. Fossil fuels harm others, therefore cannot be used as means in competition. The result of the competition doesn't matter, what matters is the means of competing. Burning fossil fuels harms others, cannot be used as a means of competition.
You can try and weasel your way out of that using chess as an example, people are just laughing at you. The result of the chess game, yes, a winner and a loser. But no one can smoke cigarettes over the table and blow the smoke into the other person's eyes as a means of competition. That's what burning fossil fuels is like.
By the way ... the fact that there are winners and losers in competition .... in business there are very few winners and at least 10 times as many losers ... and this is why your Utopia goal of giving capital to any schmuck with a business idea cannot work. Your pea brain cannot process that fundamental truth.
The pea brain will keep trying ...... why don't you join the Amish community if a simple life is what you are after? Ah yes, they have faith in a God, and you are Godless. Well, not quite .... for you, man is God and will achieve immortality on his own ....
Last edited by Pargat Perrer; Sunday, 28th April, 2024, 01:14 AM.
Hey Bob,
Your friend, the nasty troll, is boiling away that despite his bullshit postings, Peter McKillop and you, and nearly everyone including pre-teenage children, can clearly understand that fair competition, like a game of chess, can result in some harm to the loser, despite the competition having been conducted without using unfair means, and that is why the Natural Law demands: Do no harm to others, except in fair competition; that has been the basis of human society in all corners of this world evolving! This nasty troll must be feeling very lonely in his trolling (against Sid and me and at times against Peter and many others, and now even against you!) ... poor guy...
Last edited by Dilip Panjwani; Saturday, 27th April, 2024, 03:22 PM.
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