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---- Nous avons besoin d'un traduction français!
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The generous community response to individuals in the community who are UNABLE to be financially self-sufficient (for very many different reasons), is to provide them with some modest community money monthly so they do not have to be homeless and starve. This is accomplished through taxation and benefits distribution. This is generally at the "poverty level", not a "living income" level.
The law is that if an applicant is ABLE to find work, given their work resume, training, capacity, etc., then they must provide proof of ongoing searching for employment. Failure to do this terminates their right to benefit.
Is it difficult for the system to root out "cheaters" - those capable of working, but unwilling to search with good intention? Yup
........and do people like Dilip cast this relatively small subset as if they were the MAJORITY of benefit recipients? Yup
......And does Dilip then say the system is broken, and is unfair to the hard-working taxpayer.......Yup.
........One should tell the truth about reality, not warp it to be able to support some political saw horse.
Bob A (We are responsible for our brothers/sisters, and especially the more vulnerable)
Let us see what the REALITY is, Bob:
Marxism would guarantee free food, free housing with heat and water and electricity, free schooling, free commuting, free medical care, free medicines, free dental care, free nursing homes, some free basic clothing, free internet, in addition to some basic pocket change... quite a good deal if you still have all your time to party and play with friends in the same boat! And with all the entrepreneurs gone, there won't be many jobs around anyway, so the numbers getting the free stuff 'legitimately' will be huge. And why would any sensible person (not a cheater) want to sweat all day to support these huge numbers of benefit recipients for very little post-tax income for himself to pay for all the stuff in draconian inflation (an inevitable occurrence with poor productivity of 'government run' businesses, sparse numbers of entrepreneur led production units, combined with naturally wasteful consumption of free goods and services)... so the vicious cycle will go on till the country ends up in chaos, like Argentina and Venezuela and Chile and the Soviet Union did!
So, when your friend Dilip says that Marxism is broken, he is not warping reality, he is just laying out the bare facts...
Last edited by Dilip Panjwani; Thursday, 22nd February, 2024, 07:54 PM.
The generous community response to individuals in the community who are UNABLE to be financially self-sufficient (for very many different reasons), is to provide them with some modest community money monthly so they do not have to be homeless and starve. This is accomplished through taxation and benefits distribution. This is generally at the "poverty level", not a "living income" level.
The law is that if an applicant is ABLE to find work, given their work resume, training, capacity, etc., then they must provide proof of ongoing searching for employment. Failure to do this terminates their right to benefit.
Is it difficult for the system to root out "cheaters" - those capable of working, but unwilling to search with good intention? Yup
........and do people like Dilip cast this relatively small subset as if they were the MAJORITY of benefit recipients? Yup
......And does Dilip then say the system is broken, and is unfair to the hard-working taxpayer.......Yup.
........One should tell the truth about reality, not warp it to be able to support some political saw horse.
Bob A (We are responsible for our brothers/sisters, and especially the more vulnerable)
I disagree on society being dependent on charity, even of billionaires, and Religions.
Basics (Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs) must be the responsibility of the "Community".......that all have their basic needs met, even when their contribution, maybe for many reasons, is limited.
The main way the Community does this is by passing laws for progressive taxation......those who benefit most from the system, should have the most obligation to support it.
Bob A (Democratic Marxist)
So those who work and study hard in their childhood and youth, and continue doing that in their adult life, should have to support all those who prefer to party and play throughout their lives!
And they have to do this not by being charitable, but by getting forcibly robbed!!
And Bob wishes to celebrate Marx and his cronies for suggesting the above...
Last edited by Dilip Panjwani; Thursday, 22nd February, 2024, 09:20 AM.
176th Anniversary of the Communist Manifesto (February 21, 2024)
"February 21 marks the 176th anniversary of the publication of the first edition of the Communist Manifesto, written in 1848 by Karl Marx and his life-long friend and follower Frederick Engels. The Communist Manifesto became the most read and sought after pamphlet in the world. To this day, the attitude towards this pamphlet distinguishes those who are revolutionary because they use Marxism as a guide to action, from those who are hidebound and dogmatic and have another aim."
I find I agree with a lot of your analysis.....is it: "Great minds think alike.......or............(fill it in)."
But I disagree on society being dependent on charity, even of billionaires, and Religions, though I give them full credit when they do help out.
Basics (Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs) must be the responsibility of the "Community".......that all have their basic needs met, even when their contribution, maybe for many reasons, is limited.
The main way the Community does this is by passing laws for progressive taxation......those who benefit most from the system, should have the most obligation to support it.
My Future Prediction:
We will have two years (2024-5) of relative stability, despite all the firestorms present, and a somewhat wobbly world economy.
But around Jan. 1 of 2026, the sh*t will start hitting the fan.......and the main cause will be the failure to slow down the rate of negative climate change, and to reverse it before "tipping points" are reached for our Earthly eco-structure. There will be a ripple effect throughout all areas of human life.
The Naturalist Negative Climate Change people will once again say: You are going to join those in the dustbin of history who have "cried wolf".
I can only say: "I hope I am wrong".
I see the going viral of Democratic Marxism as our one chance to avoid what is coming, and, the coming, eventual extinction of the human species by suicide.
......
Nobody needs to do anything to satisfy the rich ....
I do agree with that statement.
The rich need to be satisfied OF THEIR OWN ACCORD once a certain level of wealth has been achieved. Bob Gillanders has proposed a $1 Billion level beyond which wealth will be taxed at 100%. It would be better if the world's billionaires would OF THEIR OWN ACCORD donate all their wealth beyond that level to be dispursed to projects like sanitation and clean drinking water, renewable energy especially in 3rd world nations, ending the real estate crisis in developed nations, etc.
It is being noted that major cities now have so many empty office buildings in their downtowns ... that could be turned into low-cost housing. Of course that would take capital investment ... this is one example where billionaires could make a difference. It should actually flow back to them as increased economic activity is triggered.
There are increasing rumblings of an oncoming commercial real estate (CRE) crisis greater than the 2008 mortgage crisis about to unfold later this year ... and it is now looking like interest rates are going to stay high for some time. There is growing fear in the entire real estate sector.
The “Weekly Overview” of the topic is posted for the benefit of new members who may have come in between the “Weekly Overviews”. It provides an executive summary of the issue for new viewers.
The Stats of participation are important to allow all to determine the extent of continuing interest. For thread originators/responders, they are important to see if the interest no longer warrants the labour. Or alternatively, they show that those of us discussing it are drawing in more participants, because they have begun to see the importance of our topic.
A. Statistics
1. Weekly Stats:
Week # 7 (24/2/12 – 18 [7 days])
(Sometimes Adjusted for no. of days)
.....................................................2024 Average
Last Week's......Prior Week's........Views/Day Views/Day........Views/Day.............(7 wks.)
Last week's stats are running pretty close to both the week prior and to the 2024 stats so far. This indicates a continued steady interest in DM from when the thread started. CT'ers are interested in learning more about DM, and from the discussion of government from the DM perspective.
Also, that the thread has had 3 posts per week on average, from the start, shows a consistently active thread.
This thread is an opportunity to learn something about the political system known as “Democratic Marxism”! It is also an opportunity to question DM in a good and safe forum, where we try to respect the right of all CT'ers to have their own analysis, and to be entitled to put it forward for consideration, even if differing from DM.
There is also discussion of current political affairs from the different perspectives of various participants.
B. Goal of this Thread
To make clear what Democratic Marxism is, and what it is not (Old-style USSR Communism)
To provide materials that help CT'ers analyze the pluses and minuses of DM.
Additional Notes:
1. The goal of this thread is not to try to beat opposing views into oblivion. Political economy spans the spectrum. Every position is entitled to post as it sees fit, regardless of the kind of, and amount of, postings by other positions. What is wanted is serious consideration of all posts........then you decide among the many competing political philosophies.
2. I, Bob A, personally, as the thread originator, am trying to post a new response at least twice per week, but admit my busy schedule means I may sometimes fall short on this. So it is necessary that a number of other CT'ers post responses here somewhat regularly as well.
What nonsense!
Nobody needs to do anything to satisfy the rich, and nobody needs to make it difficult for the poor to feed themselves... if only the 'governments' would stop committing these sins by the stupid laws they create!
The Canadian Manifesto for an Independent Socialist Canada (The “Waffle” Manifesto [WM] – 1969)
[Part II; Part I above]
The Father's Day Manifesto (By DMGI)
This is a short one-page discussion paper. It avoids theoretical jargon. It sets out theory only in broad general terms. It emphasizes initial strategy for evolutionary implementation of Democratic Marxist decentralized local governing. It encourages that this strategy is achievable. It only deals with “first step” and does not attempt to convince of some long, drawn-out “grand plan”.
The test will be how the working person responds when presented with the DMGI Manifesto to read. And reading it is a prerequisite before buying a DMGI membership, or a membership in any local partisan Democratic Marxist Party. We will see if it is well-received.
We will reproduce this short document here for convenience:
The Father's Day Manifesto : A Human Government Alternative Identified
(Democratic Marxism - Elaborated by the DM Global Institute – An originating document and a Recommended Platform)
Ownership of the Means of Production
a. Generally, Worker majority, at least.
b. Worker Cooperatives will be favoured by tax incentives, over legal corporations.
c. Abolition of Capital investing.
2. Subsidiarity
Most local societal civil unit (Likely cities/towns/etc.) have ALL power, following the Principle of Subsidiarity. This will be done by the higher political units downloading their authority.
3.Democratic
Only established through free elections; forcing populations into a Democratic Marxist Governance at the point of a gun is totally opposed by DM.
4.Authentication
Global local Democratic Marxist Parties are free to choose whatever platforms meet their needs. But local parties may seek an “Authentication” from the DM Global Institute that their policy in total, at least “generally”, complies with the DM Global Institute's model Democratic Marxist Platform. The DM Global Institute may suggest revisions as a condition of the granting of “Authentication”.
5.Strategy
Intermediate governments are the first to be targeted (E.g. States in USA; Provinces/Territories in Canada; etc.) The main platform of the DM Parties at this level will be three:
a. to set up the identifiable Local Political Units (LPU);
b. to download all the provincial powers possible to the LPU's;
c. the intermediate structure will remaining only as a coordinator/facilitator, to carry out instructions at that level for LPU's who need to cooperate to achieve a goal, they cannot get on their own as a small power centre.
6.Evolution
This foundation platform for Democratic Marxism is an evolving document. Elaboration of new concepts & strategies, and corrections, will all be required to keep DM relevant. The DM Global Institute will be charged with this task. One of the methods for seeking evolution, is to manage a Facebook “Democratic Marxist Global Forum” ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/2045711862207056/), open to all, where respectful and informative debate on all things political will assist the DMGI.
.
Note: Contact Us: Via our Fb Page: Democratic Marxism - Global: https://www.facebook.com/Democratic-Marxism-Global-748579292265552/?modal=admin_todo_tour
Democratic Marxist Global Institute
19/6/15
Author: Bob Armstrong, Interim Coordinator, DM Vetting Committee Interim Chairperson
Reviser: Bob Armstrong – 20/12/2
Copyright – Democratic Marxist Global Institute - 2019
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI)
Author: Bob Armstrong, Interim Coordinator, DM Vetting Committee Interim Chair
The Canadian Manifesto for an Independent Socialist Canada (The “Waffle” Manifesto [WM] – 1969)
Democratic Marxism Discussion Paper # 7
[Part I of 2 parts]
Stylistic Limitations
Manifestos are written for theoretical/ideological purists/theorists.........not for the ordinary working person. If this is kept in mind, then their purpose is clear. But what is required is documentation that is simple, clear, free of jargon, short and easily readable, if the goal is to at some point have won the understanding of over 50% of the voters to prefer some partisan implementation of “socialism”. The working person must be brought to see, and agree, that capitalism serves, unhealthily, mainly the interests of the financial elite. They must also accept that Democratic Marxism (Our particular partisan brand of socialism) will mainly serve the interests of the common good, and reign in the historical power of Capital. This is a long battle, and must be aggressively pursued before one can even consider any type of foot-fold in the legislature.
So, stylistically, the historical rhetoric of the left of the past must be jettisoned to whatever extent possible. “Comrade” to the ear of the Canadian working person only conjures up the old USSR, and the oppression of the working person by old-style Communism. Also, the historical jargon does not speak to the ordinary working person of today, and when they hear it, it is clearly and quickly categorized as “out of date”. Another example: “revolution” - loved by we theorists; creates stress and anxiety in the working person, because in revolutions, it is the workers who get killed. “Evolution” is a much more comfortable process to the working person.....it means that their lives will not be totally upended in the service of reaching quickly some rather uncertain future situation. Evolution makes for a gradual and manageable change, which may take longer, but will eventually get to the end point, without all the collateral damage (Lenin's: To make an omelette, you have to break a few eggs). This kind of change the worker will accept as both possible, and not dangerous to their daily life.
So anyone who believes that Manifestos will be read by the ordinary working person is dreaming in technicolour. I'd love to have a survey done of middle & lower middle class, and working class, workers as to how many have read Karl Marx's/Frederick Engels “Communist Manifesto”! I'll hazard a guess that the percentage will be so low it will astound all us theorists. If changing the world-view of the worker is the method of implementing Democratic Socialism, or Democratic Marxism, no manifesto of the traditional style will do so. In fact, it is likely that even the word “manifesto” makes the Canadian working person nervous (Again, the association with the USSR and oppression of its citizens, and breaches of their human rights).
Impression Limitations
The WM's main contention is that the greatest danger to Canadian sovereignty is Canada's being, willingly, a branch plant economy of the American Empire. True enough.
But the implementation of Democratic Socialism, should it ever happen in Canada, simply cannot disengage the now three economies overnight (USA/Canada/Mexico Agreement). Socialism is going to have to be implemented on many levels within Canada, despite the economic integration, and to promise otherwise is to deceive the electorate.
There will be severe internal dislocations in some industries, which will cause major push-back. Then there is the international withdrawal from the existing North American economy, and new trade agreements with USA and Mexico (And other trade agreements in the Americas will likely next require renegotiation, given the different international relations perspective of Democratic Marxism, and then other trade agreements throughout the world).
The difficulty, in my view, of the Manifesto presentation of this issue, is that it so dominates the document, it overwhelms andy strategic plan of socialism implementation. It almost gives the impression that socialism will not be achieved until this issue has been resolved. The timeline actually is that Socialism (Or Democratic Marxism) will be achieved first, and then the issue of economic sovereignty in a trading world.
The working person is generally aware that much employment in Canada is tied into trade, mostly with USA, and somewhat with Mexico. So this issue of economic sovereignty is scary to the working person. It must not overwhelm a strategy of slow evolutionary growth of a Marxist economic and self-governance structure, first in the provinces, and then secondly at the federal level.
Lastly, the Manifesto seems almost silent on strategy to change over Canada from capitalist to socialist.
This is unhelpful to the working person. The document appears as pie-in-the-sky ideology. Only educational documents will be read by, and make an impression on, the working person, where they set out steps of a plan to move forward. And it is better that a document-to-be-read does not attempt to explain the whole strategic plan from start to finish in one sitting. This will engender concern that the task is so long and arduous, that it is unachievable.
Language Limitations
The working person has an acute reaction to theoretical key words and phrases. When seen, the tendency is to dismiss the whole content as theoretical and quit reading. For example, the terms “American Empire”, “revolution”, “radical change” are problems, in my view. Historical and traditional Socialist/Marxist jargon key words should be avoided. This is especially noteworthy in the publications of the Communist Party of Canada (Marxist-Leninist). They still use the far-left jargon of the Cold War Era and the USSR – the working person simply turns off at this language, and abandons reading further........even I have trouble getting through it, and I'm committed.
Change must be “evolutionary”, and written about as such. Historical theoretical jargon is to be avoided at all cost (Despite the fact that they are handy for theorists since a single phrase realizes a whole complex interconnected set of thoughts).
This is the goal of the "Clique" (One faction being the Capitalist Oligarchs of the planet), aided and abetted by the capitalist governments of the world, including Canada. This agenda is already, and has been, slowly and incrementally put into place. It is not yet achieved, but many elements are now locked in, and the timeline for achieving full control of the world is somewhat uncertain........but at the rate pieces of the agenda are being put into place, this goal may not be too far off in the future.
Democratic Marxism is sounding the alarm on this project, fatal to humanity's freedom. It will fight to the death to try to stop the Clique from achieving its goal.
This thread sets out the very many ways, and the policies, by which DM will try to prevent the slow implementation of the agenda. Only by going back and reviewing this thread from Post # 1 on, can the full expanse of Democratic Marxism's policies and strategy be seen.
Critical to this strategy is the formation of Democratic Marxist National Parties across the globe, forming to win governments, and use their power to stop this agenda.
The first party to form has been the Democratic Marxist Party of Ontario. Ontario is a Province of Canada. It, as a province, has part of the divided governing power in Canada, and controls significant aspects of the lives of Ontarians.
The party hopes to run at least one Candidate for Member of Provincial Parliament (MPP) in the upcoming Ontario election, expected in 2026
.The 44th Ontario general election is tentatively scheduled to be held on June 4, 2026. As of December 2016, Ontario elections are held on the first Thursday in June in the fourth calendar year following the previous general election,[1] unless the Legislative Assembly of Ontario is dissolved earlier by the Lieutenant Governor of Ontario due advice from the Premier of Ontario, a motion of no confidence or the failure of the Assembly to grant supply. Such a dissolution is unlikely as the current government has a majority.
[B]This is the goal of the "Clique" (One faction being the Capitalist Oligarchs of the planet), aided and abetted by the capitalist governments of the world
Bob, you are mislabeling them. When private industry corrupts the government, you have fascism. Marxism and Fascism are essentially the same...same store, different window! Every Marxist government in history, including Allende, consisted of corrupt government bureaucrats and politicians grifting from the populace to enrich themselves under the pretense of the "common good."
The elite oligarchs you refer to have the same depraved goals as the oligarchs of the past: depopulation. I have outlined my case that you apparently no longer have the ability to read or listen to.
The elite oligarchs are a product of corrupted governments, and the idea of "you will own nothing and be happy" is essentially no different than the goals of Marxists. In both cases, the elite at the top government officials and their operating partners own everything, and the populace owns nothing.
Dilip is exactly right. Government should be kept to an absolute minimum, and strong laws should be in place to prevent unfair and corrupted competition in the marketplace.
This behavior is what we could expect to see more of under deregulated LIbertarianism:
"....a staggering $1.2 trillion in relief funds was dispersed by the Small Business Administration (SBA) over the past two years. However, shocking revelations suggest that a significant portion of this sum, approximately 70%, never reached the intended recipients – employees.
Instead, an alarming 66% to 77% of the funds were diverted into the hands of business owners and shareholders, raising serious questions about the integrity of the relief programs.
....
These individuals are facing severe penalties, with some potentially facing decades-long prison sentences for their alleged roles in schemes involving millions of dollars. From luxury cars to designer goods, the ill-gotten gains of these schemes have funded lavish lifestyles at the expense of taxpayers."
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