Democratic Marxism

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  • Bob Armstrong
    replied
    The Sustainable Earth Discussion Project: A Collection of Villages
    (A Discussion on Human Self-Government)


    The Project

    This Project seeks to initiate across the planet a conversation about a radical realignment in the world of both human relationships and human self-government.

    Local Political Units (LPU's = Villages)

    If the Earth was all local political units (A collection of villages), then we could have direct democracy via the new technologies (eliminate politicians by eliminating representative democracy).

    Nations would dissolve themselves as countries and devolve all powers to the Villages. Sometimes the powers would be devolved to coalition committees of numbers of villages.

    The Role of Governments

    Governments would become the secretariats for carrying out the will of the people, as expressed in the Villages or groups of Villages.

    Future Prospects

    It is not a pipe dream.......it just needs people to come forward and demand it.

    Multiplicity of Infrastructure

    Question:

    If you have hundreds of thousands of self-governing villages, how would you ever deal efficiently with all of the disparities of geography and economic potential?

    Response

    a. Geographic Differences

    There is no doubt that geography showers certain benefits on the residents. For example, if you are a village on the Mediterranean Sea, there are economic advantages to having a Port. Are there any advantages to being a village in the middle of the Sahara Desert? Dry Air may be one from the health point of view of some people.

    The goal of the "Sustainable Earth Project" is that through "cooperation", and "altruism", villages will work hard not to "win", but to help other villages to be 'Sustainable", even if that may mean some inequality of trade. This new paradigm works only if ALL villages are "sustainable". The goal is that each village is unique and has something to offer, that will keep the residents happy to be a resident in their village. We cannot afford to have villages that just don't work.

    b. Economic Potential Differences

    Again disparity causes problems........yes it is wonderful that some villages will have much greater economic potential than others. And we want to exploit this to the maximum (Within the rules of
    sustainability). But it is not "us for ourselves" in the Sustainable Earth Project.....it is WE (All Villages) must achieve some decent local civic quality of life....so there is going to have to be "bartering", and it may have to be "Subsidy Bartering".........one village can trade something the other needs, for what it needs, despite the disparity of value of what is being "traded".
    This may require that some villages are helped in some way by others (Sort of like Canadian Federal-Provincial transfer payments).

    This is truly a sticky wicket.

    One can think in terms of "regions of circles". So any village has a "circle of villages" around its borders. The most natural dynamic economically is for the village, and those in its first concentric
    circle, to enter into bi-lateral, and multi-lateral arrangements, so that all villages get what they need, and can accomplish tasks important to all their residents, efficiently.

    Physical/Legal Infrastructure (Needed to support inter-village dealings)

    One could consider regional transportation as an "infrastructure" problem for a village to solve. This seems most amenable to cooperation - a village coalition to set up a regional transport authority for all of them in the first circle.

    This is not so simple though..........we have circles overlaying circles in this paradigm.......But villages will be able to negotiate a workable, and desirable, solution to mass transit, where there is going to be decent service for all the residents of all villages in the "Coalition".

    Villages with Scarce Resources

    Question:

    What will be done re poverty-stricken villages that have no prospects for improving themselves because all of their scarce resources are used up by their subsistence-level existence?"

    Response

    A partial, but substantial, solution to this is "Transfer Payments" to the "less sustainable on their own" villages. It may also be that some unsustainable villages will simply have to join with one or more bordering villages to achieve at least some basic level of sustainability, which then can be subsidized.

    Invitation

    We invite anyone reading this, and interested in giving input, to e-mail DMGI (See below):

    Acknowledgement

    Some material above arose in an exchange between Peter McKillop & Bob Armstrong.

    Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI)

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    Discussion Paper # 18 (The Sustainable Earth Discussion Project)

    Most Recent Revision: 23/10/25

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  • Dilip Panjwani
    replied
    Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
    DM - there will be abolition of "bourgeois" private property - there are articles on this concept.

    Bob A
    Bob, as the Marxist are delusional that their concept of running businesses is better than that of the bourgeois, let the Marxist government compete against the Bourgeois (instead of snatching away their property), and hope that all the 'mal-treated' workers from the bourgeois businesses will rush to join the Marxist run cesspools of inefficiency... even you should be able to predict that it won't take very long for your 'public' enterprises to end up in a big mess for workers, the consumers and the citizens at large, while the hard and smart working bourgeois and their team of hard and smart working employees (who 'sweat' at work in-order to 'play' when off work) will continue to thrive, keep their consumers happy and not be a burden on the tax-payers...
    Last edited by Dilip Panjwani; Saturday, 13th January, 2024, 08:36 AM.

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  • Dilip Panjwani
    replied
    Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
    The USA and the Chilean business community did everything in their power to block Allende on everything. He continued as best he could, being undermined at every turn.

    So the typical USA answer was a "coup d'etat"........and lo and behold, Augusto Pinochet takes power, Allende having committed suicide in the Presidential palace, surrounded by coup soldiers, because he knew he would be tortured on being captured.

    Bob A
    Again, Bob, tell me which of the following was because of undermining by the US:
    Allende began his reign by forcibly snatching away land, property and businesses from their owners; these nationalized entities predictably became cesspools of inefficiency, and 'all play & no sweat' led to demand outstripping supply, government getting busy with printing money even while new investments dried up, and inflation reached 600% annually.
    You cannot blame the US for any of the above... it is DM which carries the blame...

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  • Sid Belzberg
    replied
    Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
    DM - there will be abolition of "bourgeois" private property - there are articles on this concept.

    Bob A
    Great, bourgeois employers or entrepreneurs whowill have the property abolished because God forbid they create jobs and might turn a profit. The single example you
    give of Allende is a joke.

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  • Bob Armstrong
    replied
    DM - there will be abolition of "bourgeois" private property - there are articles on this concept.

    Bob A

    Leave a comment:


  • Sid Belzberg
    replied
    Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
    The USA and the Chilean business community did everything in their power to block Allende on everything. He continued as best he could, being undermined at every turn.

    So the typical USA answer was a "coup d'etat"........and lo and behold, Augusto Pinochet takes power, Allende having committed suicide in the Presidential palace, surrounded by coup soldiers, because he knew he would be tortured on being captured.

    Bob A
    Well Bob you omitted to mention that Allende was closely aligned with the USSR from the beginning and just maybe
    the USA did not want another nuclear missile base in their
    back yard like they had less then ten years prior.
    if I were an entrepreneur in Chile and these assholes were trying to steal everything I worked for I would also be resisting.
    They also stole huge copper mines owned by US companies.
    Theft has consequences.
    You said Allende was not “old style USSR communism” when in fact that is exactly what he was. So one asshole got substituted for another in Pinochet.
    Take your “abolition of private property” concept and stick it
    where the sun never shines!




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  • Bob Armstrong
    replied
    The USA and the Chilean business community did everything in their power to block Allende on everything. He continued as best he could, being undermined at every turn.

    So the typical USA answer was a "coup d'etat"........and lo and behold, Augusto Pinochet takes power, Allende having committed suicide in the Presidential palace, surrounded by coup soldiers, because he knew he would be tortured on being captured.

    Bob A

    Leave a comment:


  • Dilip Panjwani
    replied
    By the way, our blindfolded devotee of Marxism cannot see reality:
    Allende was 'appointed' by the Chilean Congress after none of the 3 candidates in the 1970 election got a majority; 36.6% had voted for Allende, but 63.4% had voted for somebody else.
    Allende began his reign by forcibly snatching away land, property and businesses from their owners; these nationalized entities predictably became cesspools of inefficiency, and 'all play & no sweat' led to demand outstripping supply, government getting busy with printing money even while new investments dried up, and inflation reached 600% annually. By 1973, the economy and the government were paralyzed.
    Our blindfolded devotee of Marxism wants us to celebrate this dismal chapter in history!!

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  • Bob Armstrong
    replied
    Democratic Marxism in History

    Chile and the Dominican Republic

    Part II (Part I above)

    17/2/27 – DMGI Fb “Comment” re A Swedish Billionaire Will Award $5 Million For Reimagining Global Governance

    “New Global Governance” cannot be dealt with separate from a “New Global Economic System”.

    "Communism", as we've seen it practiced in history, has been a failure........a system must not have to abrogate the freedom of the citizens......they must be on board. The best system is Marxism, in my opinion. And the best example has been the socialist government of Salvadore Allende, in Chile (Though short-lived due to the army). It is often claimed, and even written that Allende was a communist. This is not true re partisan politics.....he was always, to my knowledge, part of the Socialist party (Though he clearly was quite amenable to Communism as practiced in Chile). Allende needed the Communists to govern, and reached an accord with them that gave them some power. They used it to bargain with him, to move government policies further left. It is said he had little trouble giving in, since he was likely more left than his party. Here we had a freely elected government, that I believe is the closest to successful implementation of Marxism (Not "facist-communism as we've seen it in the USSR, etc.)


    Documentation of USA Covert Actions to Overthrow Democratically-Elected Allende

    https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https...UnttSLfhRA1nT2

    B. Dominican Republic and Marxism

    1963 - 7 month revolutionary government, freely elected after long Trujillo dictatorship

    Wikipedia - Juan Emilio Bosch Gaviño (30 June 1909, La Vega – 1 November 2001, Santo Domingo) was a politician, historian, short story writer, essayist, educator, and the first democratically elected president of the Dominican Republic for a brief time in 1963. Previously, he had been the leader of the Dominican opposition in exile to the dictatorial regime of Rafael Trujillo for over 25 years. To this day he is remembered as an honest politician[1][2][3] and regarded as one of the most prominent writers in Dominican literature.[4][5][6] He founded both the Dominican Revolutionary Party (PRD) in 1939 and the Dominican Liberation Party (PLD) in 1973.


    Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI)

    Latest Revision - 17/2/27
    Author/Reviser – Bob Armstrong


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  • Bob Armstrong
    replied
    Democratic Marxism in History

    Chile and the Dominican Republic


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    Part I

    A. Chile – The Most Successful Implementation of Democratic Marxism

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    Engels & Marx

    Marxism and Individual Liberty

    Marxism does not equal no liberty and no democracy. See the statement of the Russian anarchist, Bakunin, below.

    "Communism" as practised in the prior USSR, current day China, etc. basically does not trust the citizen.......it uses force to quell dissent, and force compliance......alleged democracy is a sham......never espoused by Marx, just his uninformed alleged followers.

    Chile - A Shining Example

    In our view, the closest to a nation implementing "Marxism" has been Chile, under Socialist President Salvadore Allende in the 70's. Wikipedia refers to him as a Marxist. We have spoken to Chileans there at the time, and they dispute that he was Communist/Marxist. They say he was Socialist. But he was very amenable to Marxism/Communism. And his was a coalition government with the Communist Party of Chile being a main partner. They always made demands that he go further left in his programs, to get their vote support. Allende was so comfortable with further left that he usually gave in and got their agreement and vote. Thus the blurring of the lines as to how far left Allende really was. And he was elected in a free and fair election. Allende was elected in 1970. Wikipedia notes:

    "As a member of the SOCIALIST PARTY (emphasis added), he was a senator, deputy and cabinet minister. He unsuccessfully ran for the presidency in the 1952, 1958, and 1964 elections. In 1970, he won the presidency in a close three-way race. He was elected in a run-off by Congress as no candidate had gained a majority."

    He was the President 'til 1973 - 3 successful years of implemented "almost Marxism". Wikipedia has this to say about the coalition government rule:

    "As president, Allende adopted a policy of nationalization of industries and collectivization".

    This seems to us pretty "almost Marxist", and democratically elected, and lasting three years....a successful example, though the overall effectiveness of his government as "almost Marxist" is always being analyzed.

    Chile and the Chilean Army

    When elected, Allende did not use the armed forces of the country as a tool of oppression of the people, as have almost all prior cases of alleged "national communism", such as USSR, China, etc. He left then General Augusto Pinochet as head of the armed forces, and did not interfere in their normal operation, since Chile had had 38 years by then of continuous democratic rule. In fact, the "alleged Communists" of the world, at the time, disagreed with Allende on this and ridiculed Allende for being so naive as to not realize that he had to take over the army, and use it to suppress his people and get compliance! What did he expect was going to happen?

    End of the Almost Marxist Regime

    The army, still under General Pinochet, felt that Chile was being hijacked (despite the earlier democratic vote), and the USA wanted him out, and were willing to assist Pinochet to do this. There was a violent coup by the army. Allende committed suicide after refusing to resign and giving his last Presidential speech. His suicide was a direct result of his being overthrown, and his Presidential palace being surrounded by armed troops who were going to arrest him, if not assassinate him.

    Gen. Pinochet became President after Allende, after the successful coup.

    The coup took place in 1973 (After 3 full years of successful Socialism/Marxism). Here is how Wikipedia describes this illegal and unconstitutional overthrow of a legitimate "Socialist/almost Marxist" coalition government:

    "On 11 September 1973 the military moved to oust Allende in a coup d'état sponsored by the United States Central Intelligence Agency.[2][3][4] As troops surrounded La Moneda Palace, he gave his last speech vowing not to resign.[5] Later that day, Allende shot himself dead with an assault rifle[6] according to an 2011 investigation conducted by a Chilean court with the assistance of international experts.[7]"

    Gen. Pinochet appointed himself head of the ruling Military Junta/ President after the successful coup. Here is the aftermath, according to Wikipedia:

    "Following Allende's deposition, army General Augusto Pinochet declined to return authority to the civilian government; and Chile became ruled by a military junta that was in power from 1973 to 1990, ending almost 41 years of Chilean democratic rule. The military junta that took over dissolved the Congress of Chile and began a persecution of alleged dissidents, in which thousands of Allende's supporters were murdered."

    Evaluation of an "Almost Marxist" Country Example

    To our knowledge, there is no other example in history of a successful, democratically elected, "almost Marxist" government. Chile seems to us pretty "almost Marxist" and democratically elected, and lasted three years. Unlike the "alleged communist" countries of USSR, China, etc., Allende did not use the armed forces of the country as a tool of oppression of the people. Alleged Communist countries did, and still do, obtain subservience to their imposed government by this method, where elections are/were a sham. This is a total misinterpretation of Marxism, world-wide, if there ever was one... original Marxism has individual freedom and democracy at its core, when properly implemented. Allende's Chile is a beacon of non-use of force to establish an "almost Marxist" society, despite it having lasted just 3 years.

    Part II below


    Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI)

    Original Publication - 16/2/7
    Author – Bob Armstrong

    Copyright – Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI) - 2016
    Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Wednesday, 10th January, 2024, 02:57 AM.

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  • Dilip Panjwani
    replied
    Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
    Casey Comrad Post

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    "Cooperation", not legal theft nor brutal suppression of entrepreneurship, embodied in Marxism...
    Don't keep on hoping readers will misinterpret what Darwin said, Mr. Armstrong...

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  • Bob Armstrong
    replied
    Casey Comrad Post

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  • Bob Armstrong
    replied
    Democratic Marxism
    (Started: 24/1/3)

    Weekly Overview

    Notes:
    1. The “Weekly Overview” of the topic is posted for the benefit of new members who may have come in between the “Weekly Overviews”. It provides an executive summary of the issue for new viewers.
    2. The Stats of participation are important to allow all to determine the extent of continuing interest. For thread originators/responders, they are important to see if the interest no longer warrants the labour. Or alternatively, they show that those of us discussing it are drawing in more participants, because they have begun to see the importance of our topic.

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    A. Statistics

    Week # 1 (24/1 /3 – 7 [5 days])

    (Sometimes Adjusted for no. of days)

    A. Weekly Stats:
    .....................................................2023 Average
    Last Week's......Prior Week's........Views/Day
    Views/Day........Views/Day.............(1 wk.)

    …19........................n/a.......................19


    ................................................2023 Average

    Last Week's.....Prior Week's......Responses/Day

    Responses/Day....Resp./Day.......(1 wk.).

    ........1.......................n/a........................1


    B. Analysis of Last Week's Stats

    Last week's stats are showing a slow rise from when the thread started. We will see if this continues as CT'ers become aware of the thread, and find the topic of the thread of interest.

    Goal of this Thread
    • To make clear what Democratic Marxism is, and what it is not (Old-style USSR Communism)
    • To provide materials that help CT'ers analyze the pluses and minuses of DM.
    Additional Notes:

    1. The goal of this thread is not to try to beat opposing views into oblivion. Political economy spans the spectrum. Every position is entitled to post as it sees fit, regardless of the kind of, and amount of, postings by other positions. What is wanted is serious consideration of all posts........then you decide among the many competing political philosophies.

    2. I, Bob A, personally, as the thread originator, am trying to post a new response at least twice per week, but admit my busy schedule means I may sometimes fall short on this. So it is necessary that a number of other CT'ers post responses here somewhat regularly as well.



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  • Dilip Panjwani
    replied
    Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
    The point of Post # 4 above was that those who most condemn Democratic Marxism have never read Marx or Engels.

    Dilip has read them; I congratulate him for getting to know his opposition.

    It is too bad that Dilip's judgment is so off.

    Bob A (DM)
    It is your judgement which is so badly broken that it is non-existent, Bob. Mine, on Marxism, is in keeping with that of the vast majority around the world, who are wise enough to understand that what Marx and Engels have written is a pile of junk. You are trying to project the Marxists as an elite, learned group capable of speaking multiple languages and boasting of having read the ramblings of Marx and Engels, while in reality, the voters for DM would simply consist of those who are incapable of looking after themselves and want the 'government' to rob/restrict someone else to give them stuff they would not deserve...
    Last edited by Dilip Panjwani; Sunday, 7th January, 2024, 09:07 AM.

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  • Bob Armstrong
    replied
    The point of Post # 4 above was that those who most condemn Democratic Marxism have never read Marx or Engels.

    Dilip has read them; I congratulate him for getting to know his opposition.

    It is too bad that Dilip's judgment is so off.

    Bob A (DM)

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