Democratic Marxism

[Dilip Panjwani]

Hi Dilip:

I use "workers" generally to refer to the members of society.


Bob A

So you finally agree that anybody from 'society' can start a private business of their own, and that Marxism would not forbid 'private' investors from doing so, and that point no. 1 in your post 394 is not really what you believe?

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Dilip:

I use "workers" generally to refer to the members of society.

But it may well be that there may be individuals wealthy enough to not have to sell their labour, and can just live off savings, and perhaps interest earned from loaning to start-ups.

You may be right that it would be more accurate to call them "entrepreneurs" (Though they do have the capacity to also "work"). Also, most entrepreneurs do work with their brain, though may not be doing the physical grunt jobs.

Bob A

[Dilip Panjwani]

Workers will have all the chance they do now to build an enterprise

Bob A

Then why are they not doing it now? Do you think they are waiting for Libertarianism, wherein they can have easy access to capital?

[Dilip Panjwani]

I prefer that the "loan" be from a state bank for small business. I would consider "private loaning", since the payback is limited to a fair interest rate, rather than the obscene profit capital now garnishes at the expense of worker labour.


Bob A

It appears, especially from your second sentence, that only workers can take a loan to start a business (or more likely, to run a business that was started by someone else, which the Marxist government took away from the entrepreneur to give it to the 'workers') and that 'entrepreneurs' cannot invest by borrowing from a bank, and hence cannot start a business. You seem to think that entrepreneurs are not also workers, that they do not have to work to be able to make the right decisions for their business to survive and grow. Is that what you truly believe?

[Bob Armstrong]

I prefer that the "loan" be from a state bank for small business. I would consider "private loaning", since the payback is limited to a fair interest rate, rather than the obscene profit capital now garnishes at the expense of worker labour.

Workers will have all the chance they do now to build an enterprise, likely more.

Bob A

[Dilip Panjwani]

1. Abolition of "private" capital investing;
2. Start-up capital will generally be obtained by "loan";


Bob A

So investing with a private loan is okay, but investing with one's pre-earned capital is not? Or will it just be impossible for a talented individual or small group of individuals with novel ideas to start a business of their own?
Can you clarify what you mean?

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Dilip:

I am not totally happy with this initial wording.....it is too simplified and easily misinterpreted.........further discussion will likely lead to an amendment here.

But the concepts are four:

1. Abolition of "private" capital investing;
2. Start-up capital will generally be obtained by "loan";
3. There may be "State capital investing" should the workers desire a Public/Private Company;
4. There may be "State-owned" enterprises.

Bob A

[Dilip Panjwani]

[B]


c. Abolition of Capital investing.

Can you elaborate on this, Bob?

[Bob Armstrong]

The Father's Day Manifesto : A Human Government Alternative Identified

(Democratic Marxism - Elaborated by the DM Global Institute – A Recommended Platform)

1. Ownership of the Means of Production

a. Generally, Worker majority, at least.


b. Worker Cooperatives will be favoured by tax incentives, over legal corporations.


c. Abolition of Capital investing.

2. Subsidiarity

Most local societal civil unit (Likely cities/towns/etc.) have ALL power, following the Principle of Subsidiarity. This will be done by the higher political units downloading their authority.

3. Democratic

Only established through free elections; forcing populations into a Democratic Marxist Governance at the point of a gun is totally opposed by DM.

4. Authentication

Global local Democratic Marxist Parties are free to choose whatever platforms meet their needs. But local parties may seek an “Authentication” from the DM Global Institute that their policy in total, at least “generally”, complies with the DM Global Institute's model Democratic Marxist Platform. The DM Global Institute may suggest revisions as a condition of the granting of “Authentication”.

5. Strategy

Intermediate governments are the first to be targeted (E.g. States in USA; Provinces/Territories in Canada; etc.) The main platform of the DM Parties at this level will be three:


a. to set up the identifiable Local Political Units (LPU);
b. to download all the provincial powers possible to the LPU's;
c. the intermediate structure will remaining only as a coordinator/facilitator, to carry out instructions at that level for LPU's who need to cooperate to achieve a goal, they cannot get on their own as a small power centre.

6. Evolution

This foundation platform for Democratic Marxism is an evolving document. Elaboration of new concepts & strategies, and corrections, will all be required to keep DM relevant. The DM Global Institute will be charged with this task. One of the methods for seeking evolution, is to manage a Facebook “Democratic Marxist Global Forum” (
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2045711862207056/), open to all, where respectful and informative debate on all things political will assist the DMGI.


Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI)


Author: Bob Armstrong, Coordinator / DM Vetting Committee Chairperson


Original: 19/6/15
Most Recent Revision: 20/12/2 - Bob Armstrong


Contact Us: Via Fb:


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[Bob Armstrong]

Democratic Marxism
(Started: 24/1/3)

Weekly Overview

Notes:

1. The “Weekly Overview” of the topic is posted for the benefit of new members who may have come in between the “Weekly Overviews”. It provides an executive summary of the issue for new viewers.
2. The Stats of participation are important to allow all to determine the extent of continuing interest. For thread originators/responders, they are important to see if the interest no longer warrants the labour. Or alternatively, they show that those of us discussing it are drawing in more participants, because they have begun to see the importance of our topic

A. Statistics




1. Weekly Stats:

Week # 28 of 2024 (7/8-14 [7 days])

(Sometimes Adjusted for no. of days)


.....................................................2024 Average
Last Week's......Prior Week's........Views/Day
Views/Day........Views/Day.............(28 wks.)

….…20...................13.......................23


................................................2024 Average

Last Week's.....Prior Week's......Responses/Day

Responses/Day....Resp./Day.......(28 wks.).

........1......................1......................2


2. Analysis of Last Week's Stats

Last week's stats are ahead of the prior week, and consistent with the year to date – steady interest and participation. Generally, at the start of a thread, there is a flurry of responses. So the current rate of response is somewhat higher than normal for this late in the thread.

More discussion/increased participation does happen when a current controversial issue is brought into the thread. The thread does involve discussion of current political affairs from the different perspectives of the various participants, so “current” issues do arise.

Fundamentally, though, this thread is an “educational” thread about something that may not be that attractive to some CT'ers. Nonetheless, the yearly average stats for this thread (Per day: Views – 24; Responses - 2) are good.

The stats do show that CT'ers are interested in learning more about DM, and about government from the DM perspective. This thread is an opportunity to learn something about the political system known as “Democratic Marxism”! It is also an opportunity to question DM in a good and safe forum, where we try to respect the right of all CT'ers to have their own analysis, and to be entitled to put it forward for consideration, even if differing from DM.

Note: I, as originator/main poster, am now just posting per week, on Mondays, the past week's stats, and on Tuesdays, 1 DM discussion paper. But I do try to respond to response questions, and introduce new “current” topics when they seem appropriate, especially re “current events”. So, overall, it is expected that the stats have slowly come down, and are now at a slower, steady pace.


B. Goal of this Thread

• To make clear what Democratic Marxism is, and what it is not (Old-style USSR Communism)
• To provide materials that help CT'ers analyze the pluses and minuses of DM.

Additional Notes:

1. The goal of this thread is not to try to beat opposing views into oblivion. Political economy spans the spectrum. Every position is entitled to post as it sees fit, regardless of the kind of, and amount of, postings by other positions. What is wanted is serious consideration of all posts........then you decide among the many competing political philosophies.

2. CT'ers are welcome to post responses here regularly, in addition to our core group of very active responders.


Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI)

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[Dilip Panjwani]

Hi Bob,
Why do you continue to deceive yourself? Sid has previously given you the full picture:
Allende first stole the major thriving businesses in Chile (in other words, nationalized the same paying the real owners a pittance of what the businesses were really worth), and so for a very short temporary period of time the citizens enjoyed that stolen wealth; however the economy soon started deteriorating and inflation rose to around triple digits (despite whatever economic collaboration was possible with other similarly dysfunctional socialist/Marxist countries), spreading unrest all around Chile. Pinochet and his supporters in the Capitalist countries (wrongly, I agree) took advantage of that to topple him...
It all only goes to support the notion that Marxism is seriously deleterious to human society, whether democratic or not...

[Bob Armstrong]

Democratic Marxism in History (Continued)

Part II of 2 parts; see Part I above]

Gen. Pinochet became President after Allende, after the successful coup.

The coup took place in 1973 (After 3 full years of successful Socialism/Marxism). Here is how Wikipedia describes this illegal and unconstitutional overthrow of a legitimate "Socialist/almost Marxist" coalition government:

"On 11 September 1973 the military moved to oust Allende in a coup d'état sponsored by the United States Central Intelligence Agency.[2][3][4] As troops surrounded La Moneda Palace, he gave his last speech vowing not to resign.[5] Later that day, Allende shot himself dead with an assault rifle[6] according to an 2011 investigation conducted by a Chilean court with the assistance of international experts.[7]"

Gen. Pinochet appointed himself head of the ruling Military Junta/ President after the successful coup. Here is the aftermath, according to Wikipedia:

"Following Allende's deposition, army General Augusto Pinochet declined to return authority to the civilian government; and Chile became ruled by a military junta that was in power from 1973 to 1990, ending almost 41 years of Chilean democratic rule. The military junta that took over dissolved the Congress of Chile and began a persecution of alleged dissidents, in which thousands of Allende's supporters were murdered."

Evaluation of an "Almost Marxist" Country Example

To our knowledge, there is no other example in history of a successful, democratically elected, "almost Marxist" government. Chile seems to us pretty "almost Marxist" and democratically elected, and lasted three years. Unlike the "alleged communist" countries of USSR, China, etc., Allende did not use the armed forces of the country as a tool of oppression of the people. Alleged Communist countries did, and still do, obtain subservience to their imposed government by this method, where elections are/were a sham. This is a total misinterpretation of Marxism, world-wide, if there ever was one... original Marxism has individual freedom and democracy at its core, when properly implemented. Allende's Chile is a beacon of non-use of force to establish an "almost Marxist" society, despite it having lasted just 3 years.

Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI)

Original Publication - 16/2/7
Author – Bob Armstrong
Copyright – Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI) - 2016

17/2/27 – DMGI Fb “Comment” re A Swedish Billionaire Will Award $5 Million For Re-imagining Global Governance

“New Global Governance” cannot be dealt with separate from a “New Global Economic System”.

"Communism", as we've seen it practiced in history, has been a failure........a system must not have to abrogate the freedom of the citizens......they must be on board. The best system is Marxism, in my opinion. And the best example has been the socialist government of Salvadore Allende, in Chile (Though short-lived due to the army). It is often claimed, and even written that Allende was a communist. This is not true re partisan politics.....he was always, to my knowledge, part of the Socialist party (Though he clearly was quite amenable to Communism as practised in Chile). Allende needed the Communists to govern, and reached an accord with them that gave them some power. They used it to bargain with him, to move government policies further left. It is said he had little trouble giving in, since he was likely more left than his party. Here we had a freely elected government, that I believe is the closest to successful implementation of Marxism (Not "fascist-communism” as we've seen it in the USSR, etc.)

Documentation of USA Covert Actions to Overthrow Democratically-Elected Allende

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2017%2F10%2F14%2Fworld%2Famericas%2Fchile-coup-cia-museum.html%3Femc%3Dedit_tnt_20171015%26nlid%3D3783759%26tntemail0%3Dy%26_r%3D2&h=ATP508SF53aZ9e4Eo2FRNVJmXqUsrUVvbcfQ9NNvZYlSNv6MPvfC2GqNwZyCqByQdVDfKY6XjHSiPvhu1HD-_ZNiMPPMXDVfvkJ3V5OAerEC-8APXifdmRHk9KURnJW0_8al6VEgYLyBFK5f24T0v2D9ou_nBS15GYvNPdgCqp6ky1ob4x_dow_hGyvOBGtbd3GaqcG8qMmNXoUwlSU4RXMzteAHimIaaQoKzT0xh0Sg_muzx4tNzPJ0X5DGmgxvD37H80qJMygGjpUnttSLfhRA1nT2

B. Dominican Republic and Marxism

1963 - 7 month revolutionary government, freely elected after long Trujillo dictatorship

Wikipedia - Juan Emilio Bosch Gaviño (30 June 1909, La Vega – 1 November 2001, Santo Domingo) was a politician, historian, short story writer, essayist, educator, and the first democratically elected president of the Dominican Republic for a brief time in 1963. Previously, he had been the leader of the Dominican opposition in exile to the dictatorial regime of Rafael Trujillo for over 25 years. To this day he is remembered as an honest politician^[1][2][3] and regarded as one of the most prominent writers in Dominican literature.^[4][5][6] He founded both the Dominican Revolutionary Party (PRD) in 1939 and the Dominican Liberation Party (PLD) in 1973.

Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI)

Latest Revision - 17/2/27
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Copyright – Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI) - 2017

[Bob Armstrong]

Democratic Marxism

Discussion Paper # 22




Democratic Marxism in History

[Part I of 2 parts]


A. Chile – The Most Successful Implementation of Democratic Marxism

Marxism and Individual Liberty

Marxism does not equal no liberty and no democracy.

"Communism" as practised in the prior USSR, current day China, etc. basically does not trust the citizen.......it uses force to quell dissent, and force compliance......alleged democracy is a sham......never espoused by Marx, just his uninformed alleged followers.

Chile - A Shining Example

In our view, the closest to a nation implementing "Marxism" has been Chile, under Socialist President Salvadore Allende in the 70's. Wikipedia refers to him as a Marxist. We have spoken to Chileans there at the time, and they dispute that he was Communist/Marxist. They say he was Socialist. But he was very amenable to Marxism/Communism. And his was a coalition government with the Communist Party of Chile being a main partner. They always made demands that he go further left in his programs, to get their vote support. Allende was so comfortable with further left that he usually gave in and got their agreement and vote. Thus the blurring of the lines as to how far left Allende really was. And he was elected in a free and fair election. Allende was elected in 1970. Wikipedia notes:

"As a member of the SOCIALIST PARTY (emphasis added), he was a senator, deputy and cabinet minister. He unsuccessfully ran for the presidency in the 1952, 1958, and 1964 elections. In 1970, he won the presidency in a close three-way race. He was elected in a run-off by Congress as no candidate had gained a majority."

He was the President 'til 1973 - 3 successful years of implemented "almost Marxism". Wikipedia has this to say about the coalition government rule:

"As president, Allende adopted a policy of nationalization of industries and collectivization".

This seems to us pretty "almost Marxist", and democratically elected, and lasting three years....a successful example, though the overall effectiveness of his government as "almost Marxist" is always being analyzed.

Chile and the Chilean Army

When elected, Allende did not use the armed forces of the country as a tool of oppression of the people, as have almost all prior cases of alleged "national communism", such as USSR, China, etc. He left then General Augusto Pinochet as head of the armed forces, and did not interfere in their normal operation, since Chile had had 38 years by then of continuous democratic rule. In fact, the "alleged Communists" of the world, at the time, disagreed with Allende on this and ridiculed Allende for being so naive as to not realize that he had to take over the army, and use it to suppress his people and get compliance! What did he expect was going to happen?

End of the Almost Marxist Regime

The army, still under General Pinochet, felt that Chile was being hijacked (despite the earlier democratic vote), and the USA wanted him out, and were willing to assist Pinochet to do this. There was a violent coup by the army. Allende committed suicide after refusing to resign and giving his last Presidential speech. His suicide was a direct result of his being overthrown, and his Presidential palace being surrounded by armed troops who were going to arrest him, if not assassinate him.

Gen. Pinochet became President after Allende, after the successful coup.

The coup took place in 1973 (After 3 full years of successful Socialism/Marxism). Here is how Wikipedia describes this illegal and unconstitutional overthrow of a legitimate "Socialist/almost Marxist" coalition government:

"On 11 September 1973 the military moved to oust Allende in a coup d'état sponsored by the United States Central Intelligence Agency.[2][3][4] As troops surrounded La Moneda Palace, he gave his last speech vowing not to resign.[5] Later that day, Allende shot himself dead with an assault rifle[6] according to an 2011 investigation conducted by a Chilean court with the assistance of international experts.[7]"

[See Part II below]

Democratic Marxist Global Institute (DMGI)

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[Dilip Panjwani]

25+ % inflation is fatal, no doubt.

I am not defending the prior government of Argentina. It was being badly administered.

Bob A (DM'ist)

All the prior Argentina government was sincerely doing was practicing socialism/marxism, which you admire (though have never been able to explain why you admire this philosophy so deleterious to human society)!

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Sid:

25+ % inflation is fatal, no doubt.

I am not defending the prior government of Argentina. It was being badly administered. It is the reason the Argentinians stampeded to the very far right, economically, into Libertarianism.

But my understanding is that currently the ordinary Argentinian worker is suffering worse than before, or maybe just the same. Economists are happy enough, as you say....not so for the ordinary Argentinian.

Also, is it unusual for the economists to put a rosy glow on unregulated capitalism, with over-the-top predictions for the future?

Bob A (DM'ist)