Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

I completely agree that the Canadian Chess Champion and other players should be paid when they do promotional activities. I challenge you to submit a proposal to this site on how that can happen. ... .

I don't accept that challenge, primarily because I'm not interested. Let someone who is interested come up with the ideas. As mentioned in another post in this forest, I am a chess consumer. There is no shame in that.

As for the part where you shift the burden to the mystical CFC, let me just say that YOU are the CFC. If every member of the CFC says let someone else do the work then nothing will get done.

I'm not presently a member of the CFC. I let my membership lapse last December after being a member since the fall of 1976. When I was a member, however, there was never any contract between the CFC and me, implied or otherwise, requiring that I do work for the benefit of the CFC or its members. I was and continue to be a chess consumer. I'm simply not purchasing the CFC's products and services at the moment. By the way, are you aware that the CFC, according to its Handbook, doesn't recognize its own members? What kind of arrangement is that? The CFC is not a mystical organization. It's a real organization run by real people who for the past decade or so have had real problems in trying to manage the CFC successfully. In any event, Garvin, if you wish to volunteer your time and effort for the benefit of the CFC and its members, then by all means do so. I would never criticize someone for donating their time to a legitimate organization that they believe in.

Everything that happens in Canadian chess is because one of the 2000 CFC members decides to do it.

Yep. You've got a point there, subject to the understanding that you're referring to CFC-related happenings. Of course there are lots of things that happen in Canadian chess, including lots of good things, that the CFC has no influence over whatsoever (e.g. the FQE), or that the CFC exerts a negative pressure on (e.g. CMA). Anyway, the fact that your statement is at least partially correct doesn't mean that I'm obliged to be one of those doers. Doers should be doers!! I encourage it, dammit! The rest of us who want to be consumers should be left in peace.

Now I have no problem with most people choosing to be free riders. Just don't be surprised when the next zonal is slapped together at the last minute, has no advertising, high, entry fees for the participants etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

"Free riders", eh? You can probably guess my response to that comment. And no, I certainly won't be surprised if the next zonal is slapped together at the last minute. After all, we're talking about an organization that officially does not recognize its own members and which has fought the CMA tooth-and-nail for, what, twenty years or more?

[Garvin Nunes]

Re: Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

...I'm not presently a member of the CFC. I let my membership lapse last December after being a member since the fall of 1976. When I was a member, however, there was never any contract between the CFC and me, implied or otherwise, requiring that I do work for the benefit of the CFC or its members. I was and continue to be a chess consumer. I'm simply not purchasing the CFC's products and services at the moment. By the way, are you aware that the CFC, according to its Handbook, doesn't recognize its own members? What kind of arrangement is that? The CFC is not a mystical organization. It's a real organization run by real people who for the past decade or so have had real problems in trying to manage the CFC successfully. In any event, Garvin, if you wish to volunteer your time and effort for the benefit of the CFC and its members, then by all means do so. I would never criticize someone for donating their time to a legitimate organization that they believe in...

I understand your point and was only saying that everything that happens in Canadian Chess is volunteer based. Even the people who make money are volunteers because of the opportunity costs of doing the chess event vs most other jobs.

If you look around and don't see something happening in Canadian chess its because someone didn't volunteer to do it.

(Let me note that I do in fact think its possible to make money -even big money- in the Canadian Chess Scene but it rests on the shoulders of a volunteer system. For those of you who have looked at other sports or political movements you know this is called grass roots organization.

Look at the success of Toronto FC soccer organization for example, which now sells out almost every game. It is completely based on volunteer fan support groups such as Red Patch Boys and U Sector. The pros, the franchise and the MLS all cash in on the enthusiasm these groups generate. Ok, this footnote is getting too long so I will now stop typing.)

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

Kevin Spraggett writes on his blog:

"This 10th edition of the Montreal International has been something of an embarrassment both to the local organization (ineptly lead by local organizer Andre Langlois) and to the main sponsor Empresa. One would think that going into your 10th effort (of anything!) one would be able to produce a quality event and one that the world would be interested in.

Instead, both local and international coverage of the tournament was a deception. The tournament web site, http://www.echecsmontreal.ca/, despite numerous complaints, was never fixed and remained an embarrassment to all. I mean, how much effort is required to change Cananda to Canada?

One of the most important internet news sites (http://www.chessvibes.com/) simply stopped covering the tournament after the first rounds because of difficulties getting daily information !

Shame on both Empresa and Langlois!

One would hope that for 2010 either the organizers or the sponsor part company and try to produce something that does not remind one of Mickey Mouse or back to the future!"

Oh great, lets bad mouth the sponsors, this is the way to get more sponsorship.

Chess players will cut their own nose off to spite someone else's face...

When even $50000 does not ensure a good tournament.

Let's just forget the Canadian closed, its not important to the majority of players rated under 2200. I don't think it will run next time anyway. Let's decide the champion of Canada in the open section of some open tournament somewhere, announce it before hand & let that be it. If it has to be all Canadian then have it at the open of Labour Day for example if Bryan is willing and have a separate all Canadian open section.

[Felix Dumont]

Re : Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

André Langlois did a very good job with this tournament. I really don't see the purpose of saying that. Not only he spent a lot of money for this tournament, but it costed him a lot of time too. If we want to get new sponsors, we should begin by keeping the rares that we actually have.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

The 10th Montreal International that finished last night had several sponsors (private companies, no taxpayers money by the way) whose contribution totalled around 50,000$. Check out the names for yourself Mr Bonham and at least open your eyes if you cant open your mind. You too Mr Ottosen. In any case writing a post approved by Mr Bonham must be such a downer...:) The kiss of death.

Well, as someone else pointed out, this sponsorship is SYMPATHY MONEY. I don't consider this to be true sponsorship, and expecting other tournaments across Canada to get the same type of sympathy money is unrealistic. This one tournament is lucky enough to benefit from someone who gives money with little or no regard to where it goes and whether it gives any ROI. That doesn't translate to what the country as a whole should expect.

And as the replies from Hugh Brodie and John Coleman demonstrate, even your vaunted $50,000 can't buy a decent sign. Probably because all the money went to the players. Quick, figure out a way to blame Hal Bond!

Face it, Jean Hebert, you are a quality player playing a losing game. You are obviously upset about your predicament and willing to blame organizers around the country (and have them leave chess altogether, worsening the situation) for the fact that chess in it's classical form can't make money. But as David Ottosen alluded to, you can catch a lot more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.

You say you're ready to give simuls, meet sponsors, all the things that players of your calibre have been doing for years with almost nothing to show for it. You want to keep doing the same things and expect a different result. That's a definition for insanity.

[David Ottosen]

Re: Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

Thank you for writing that "If you as a chess player believe that chess is sponsorable and has upside, you should work as an incredibly positive force publicly and hope for the best". I hope Mr. Hebert reads this and weeps for his mistakes.

I should make clear - I don't really know what Jean has done for chess, although I have an idea that his contribution within Quebec has been quite significant.

Let me ask you right out: do you think any such thing could happen for chess as it is played currently? Or do you think there needs to be a change or changes in chess itself, to give it more mass appeal; that is, more appeal to the non-chessplayer, so that ROI would be easier to realize?

My personal belief (and I stress that this is personal as a reasonably competent amateur) is that high level chess in Canada its current form has no mass market appeal for the game itself. The interest in almost every sporting activity comes not so much from deep understanding of the game, but a rooting interest for personalities and specific players.

Just think, for example, of the difference between watching your city's NHL team play on HNIC, or watching two random teams you don't care about. Both still hockey, but one game you care about infinitely more. Simply put, for a sponsor to get ROI, there have to be people interested in watching the event and hearing more about it - the ROI comes from the sponsor's name being in the fan's consciousness. If there are no fans, there is no name in consciousness and no ROI.

The other problem with chess in Canada is even the most casual observer knows that there are no world class players playing (I hope no one will take offense to this - by world class, I mean capable of being a top 10, WC candidate, Linares type player). Think of it as the WNBA - sure, they're the best female players, but the fan interest is not comparable to the real NBA.

If I was going to propose that anything in Canada be sponsored, it would be the Olympiad team - properly publicized, you have a group that the whole country would (theoretically) have some interest in following the results of over a series of days playing in an undeniably world class event - enough time to build a storyline about the team and get casual fans interested in following the results.

The Montreal International Jean mentions definitely received sponsorship - but my question to Jean is whether or not that business really believes they received $50K worth of benefit for their money. If not (and I can't imagine that they do - for example, how many people on this board - which is the exact target market for this sponsorship - could tell you what Empresa's product is? I sure couldn't), it should be seen as what it is - a donation.

Donations certainly can exist as a form of funding chess, and that's fine. It just takes a ton more work and is a much more fickle proposition than demonstrating to a real sponsor that they are exchanging their money for something of value and for which their investment will result in a gain for their business. If you can do that, you get a situation where you can have a sustainable sponsor relationship.

[Carl Bilodeau]

Re: Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

Kevin Spraggett writes on his blog:

"This 10th edition of the Montreal International has been something of an embarrassment both to the local organization (ineptly lead by local organizer Andre Langlois) and to the main sponsor Empresa. One would think that going into your 10th effort (of anything!) one would be able to produce a quality event and one that the world would be interested in.

Instead, both local and international coverage of the tournament was a deception. The tournament web site, http://www.echecsmontreal.ca/, despite numerous complaints, was never fixed and remained an embarrassment to all. I mean, how much effort is required to change Cananda to Canada?

One of the most important internet news sites (http://www.chessvibes.com/) simply stopped covering the tournament after the first rounds because of difficulties getting daily information !

Shame on both Empresa and Langlois!

One would hope that for 2010 either the organizers or the sponsor part company and try to produce something that does not remind one of Mickey Mouse or back to the future!"

I went at the TIM 9 days out of 11 and did really appreciate everything I saw.

The tournament is in Old Montreal a touristic area with very old buildings. The Empressa building is old like all the others but very nicely renovated. The building is only 25 meters wide with two entrances in the front to chose. One is the restaurant and the other is the building main entrance. If you get lost you take the other door. There was not so much signs but everything else was very good for me.

There was about 30 to 40 spectators every day.

I feel we are very lucky to have this big event with 12 GM and 1 IM when we know that Montreal has not so much Chess Clubs.

I am very surprise that M. Spraggett says "Shame on Empressa". Blaming M. Langlois is his right. But blaming a sponsor company will let traces on the internet for Empressa customers and this has nothing to do with chess. If they loose a single customer it can cut 50000$ from their revenue. I think he should change this sentence on his blog and remove the Empressa name.

It send a message to those like me who are willing to get involved. The message is "Hide the name of your companies if you want to help because it is risky here".

Carl

[Carl Bilodeau]

Re: Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

Well, as someone else pointed out, this sponsorship is SYMPATHY MONEY. I don't consider this to be true sponsorship, and expecting other tournaments across Canada to get the same type of sympathy money is unrealistic. This one tournament is lucky enough to benefit from someone who gives money with little or no regard to where it goes and whether it gives any ROI. That doesn't translate to what the country as a whole should expect.

And as the replies from Hugh Brodie and John Coleman demonstrate, even your vaunted $50,000 can't buy a decent sign. Probably because all the money went to the players. Quick, figure out a way to blame Hal Bond!

Face it, Jean Hebert, you are a quality player playing a losing game. You are obviously upset about your predicament and willing to blame organizers around the country (and have them leave chess altogether, worsening the situation) for the fact that chess in it's classical form can't make money. But as David Ottosen alluded to, you can catch a lot more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.

You say you're ready to give simuls, meet sponsors, all the things that players of your calibre have been doing for years with almost nothing to show for it. You want to keep doing the same things and expect a different result. That's a definition for insanity.

Paul the TIM has 6 presentation chess boards in the playing room with a lot of chairs and a GM commentator in another room. This is fantastic. The presentation was live on the internet, the Newspapers, radio and TV were there. They also have a website. This is near top notch event and in no way should be compared to the Canadian Open which had none of all these nice features.

Hugh Brodie is a weird man that give bad opinions on big events and make good comments on picnic chess events and café events.

This is real sponsorship and it is not the only event to have such sponsorship in Montreal. It is the same for the Quebec Open. Even the Montreal Open Chess Championship had SYMPATHY contributions from individuals, company, associations. This is the way things have to be done.

You are making a fool of you in my opinion by picking on Jean like that. It simply doesn't work and bring more credibilities to his comments. Think about it.

Carl

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

Paul the TIM has 6 presentation chess boards in the playing room with a lot of chairs and a GM commentator in another room. This is fantastic. The presentation was live on the internet, the Newspapers, radio and TV were there. They also have a website. This is near top notch event and in no way should be compared to the Canadian Open which had none of all these nice features.

I was at the Canadian Open as well as the TIM. I can assure you that the Canadian Open had:

1) Presentation live on the Internet (MonRoi), and screens for on-site spectators.
2) Newspapers radio and TV. I saw the media there, and read the articles.
3) There was a website (and still is).

[Carl Bilodeau]

Re: Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

I was at the Canadian Open as well as the TIM. I can assure you that the Canadian Open had:

1) Presentation live on the Internet (MonRoi), and screens for on-site spectators.
2) Newspapers radio and TV. I saw the media there, and read the articles.
3) There was a website (and still is).

I was at the TIM and I saw a Hugh Brodie so badly dress with the same t-shirt I was scared he would come dressed up like this on the next Montreal event. If you want to kill the glamour in an event you know how to do it for sure.

Carl

[Craig Sadler]

Re: Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

Paul the TIM has 6 presentation chess boards in the playing room with a lot of chairs and a GM commentator in another room. This is fantastic. The presentation was live on the internet, the Newspapers, radio and TV were there. They also have a website. This is near top notch event and in no way should be compared to the Canadian Open which had none of all these nice features.

i will say that chessgames.com had trouble getting the games from the website in a timely manner

[Daniel Rouleau]

Re: Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

Hugh Brodie is a weird man that give bad opinions on big events and make good comments on picnic chess events and café events.

Mr. Brodie is one of the few men who was/is well respected by the FQE and CFC members, even when the relations between these two organisations were at their worst.

Mr. Brodie has given thousands upon thousands of hours to preserve the canadian chess heritage.

For those who are not familiar with Mr. Bilodeau, please be aware he was suspended twice from the Québec city chess bulletin board for hateful comments.

Even the Montreal Open Chess Championship had SYMPATHY contributions from individuals, company, associations.

Correct, the company of which you are a director started the sympathy contributions and others jumped on the bandwagon.

A very good thing.

Please keep in mind few chess players can influence how their company spend their PR money and even those who can may not want their company associated with events which may be openly criticized on the web.

[Carl Bilodeau]

Re: Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

Mr. Brodie is one of the few men who was/is well respected by the FQE and CFC members, even when the relations between these two organisations were at their worst.

Mr. Brodie has given thousands upon thousands of hours to preserve the canadian chess heritage.

For those who are not familiar with Mr. Bilodeau, please be aware he was suspended twice from the Québec city chess bulletin board for hateful comments.


Correct, the company of which you are a director started the sympathy contributions and others jumped on the bandwagon.

A very good thing.

Please keep in mind few chess players can influence how their company spend their PR money and even those who can may not want their company associated with events which may be openly criticized on the web.

Quebec City chess club have people smoking drug at the door. They have no women, no kids. People on their forum talk about going outside the hall to fight, some are scared of going back the next week to be beaten. I gave my opinion on such stupids behaviors and I called for their clubs to be suspended from the FQE so that a new club would be created with women and children. They do a lot of damage to the whole chess community in the whole province. They suspended me from their SMALL forum. LOL. What else could they do to not be suspended from FQE? People should speak out about what is going on in Quebec city so that a new real club will open to everybody. How come there is no kids in Quebec city known in our chess community? It is becauce there is no place for them. I have 5 kids.

Carl

[Jean Hébert]

Re: Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

Well, as someone else pointed out, this sponsorship is SYMPATHY MONEY. I don't consider this to be true sponsorship...

Predictably you remain committed to twist the facts in order to support your theories, no matter what.

Anyone can make a mistake; a fool insists on repeating it.

[Jean Hébert]

Re: Few personal notes about Canadian Closed

Kevin Spraggett writes on his blog:

Kevin's very harsh words are not completely out of order, because of course nothing is perfect. Internet coverage could of course have gone smoother, and media attention could have been greater along with a hosts of smaller details. However one thing is certain. The top GMs who played this year and the years before like the city and the conditions (this includes the money), otherwise they would not come back.

That might be one of the real reasons why Kevin is so sour: he has never been invited to the party. As they say: "I either want less corruption, or more chance to participate in it." In this case it would be: "I want a better tournament, or a chance to play in it".