Canada at the Olypmiad

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Canada at the Olypmiad

I personally love how top players are always complaining along the lines of "you guys need to do a better job organizing chess in Canada" and "I can't believe how bad you are at organizing. I would never do it that way!"

All are completely self-serving statements as they would be the main beneficiary of more funding. I sure wouldn't. Why should organizers do things only with them in mind? How about the majority of players who are just playing for fun? Just because they have chosen it as their life's work, doesn't mean everyone should go along for the ride to make things better for them.

I am waiting for the day when they all realize that chess in this country is not an important activity to the masses and even to us most of the time. If they want to promote themselves, let them go and do it. If they want to get someone to sponser them, go do it.

As for complaing about the CFC, the fact that it has never been able to do a better job to give them their Utopian federation should tell them something beyond the fact that the people involved are not competent. There has to be other reasons!

To more than 99% of us, it is just a game. Go earn your own living. Stop complaining about others. If you want something to change, take up the job yourself.

Well said! But Jean isn't part of your 99%, he's the 1% that desperately wants to live off of your money. So you won't shut him up, unfortunately.

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: Canada at the Olypmiad

Do not ask yourself why chess is in such a poor state in Canada and why the CFC has been on the verge of bankrupcy and still is in more ways than one. When we read about a former CFC president and current Ontario Chess Association president stating flatly that he or his events have no need for sponsors and that he has no use for advice on how to find any, then we understand what the problem is. Turning away even the possibility of sponsorship is in effect giving up on involving the community into what you are doing for the good of that community. No decent organizer (whether its chess or something else) can think like that.

I never stated that I need no sponsorship (I accept paypal at dcmallon@rogers.com :p)

I also never stated that none of "my events" need sponsorship - I currently have no upcoming events, therefore I am not currently seeking sponsorship.

What bothers some people here is not so much that I push organizers to find sponsorship (I use this word in the largest sense possible, which includes donations and any other support that is possible to get from public, private or corporate sources when you simply bother to make contacts and ask) it is that I regularly underlines real life examples where it is being done successfully by several people in Canada. That seems to make people like Chris and others feel ill at-ease, if not inadequate, incompetent and useless. And not without reason.

The easy way to react is to shoot at the messenger. But the reality of things is that the CFC has been run for the last few decades by level 1 organizers (with one or two exceptions), that are satisfied with simply collecting entry fees and giving back the little that is left after expenses and then saying to justify themselves that "everyone had a good time."

Only in chess do we find people thinking that it is enough. If someone like a chess organizer has no interest in getting better and more efficient at what he is doing and could/should be doing, then maybe he should consider stepping down and leave the spot completely vacant for someone else with a little more ambition and drive.

So what you're saying is almost every organizer in Canada should just stop organizing, other than maybe one or two? Yup, I'm sure that will do wonders for chess in Canada.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Canada at the Olypmiad

I couldn't agree more.

I know several companies that would be interested in sponsoring chess events. I have chess-playing friends working in big law firms that wouldn't hesitate to fund chess activities. I myself have often offered sponsorship to any organizer that would just take 2 minutes to contact me and explain his/her project. Back in the day, the FQE had the good sense to approach high-profile chess enthusiasts (Claude Filion, Roger Lemelin, Gilles Carles, etc...) who thereafter attracted potential sponsors.

Marc, it sounds like you are in Quebec, where it seems 80 or 90% of all chess sponsorship in Canada is occurring.

Can you elaborate on just why these companies are interested in sponsoring chess events? What do they believe they will get out of it?

From your description of your own wish to sponsor, it sounds like you represent what is called "sympathy money", meaning you just want to contribute to chess, and don't particularly care about ROI. Does this sound correct?

Sympathy money is hard to come by, but again, it seems to be most abundant in Quebec. May I also ask and get an honest answer, if you sponsor a chess event in Quebec, do you (or your company) receive anything like tax breaks or some other financial incentive from the Quebec government or the FQE?

If things are happening in Quebec and not anywhere else in Canada, and if they are happening in Quebec despite no financial windfall such as tax breaks, then it is imperative for the good of chess in Canada that someone who is in the know explain to the rest of Canada what they are missing. It's hard to believe that Quebec has hard-working ambitious organizers and the rest of Canada has lazy do-nothing organizers, which is what Jean Hebert is implying.

There's something fishy in Denmark!

[Marc Ghannoum]

Re: Canada at the Olypmiad

Paul,

I indeed live in Quebec. Companies have millions of reasons to invest in chess. Most often, they have someone working there that has played seriously at one point in their lives and wish to give back to the community. Some businesses like to be associated with the game of kings (whatever that is) or to a highly intellectual activity. Others need to invest in non-profit organizations. Etc, etc, etc.... Furthermore, investment in chess is relatively cheap: for 5000$, you could have your company name plastered everywhere in the chess tournament. I work closely with pharmaceuticals that pay 10 times this amount for barely nothing.

Yes, my own contribution can be considered "sympathy money", but I get to invest in a game that has given me a lot through the years and i can even get a tax break in some cases (nice bonus but not essential). Sympathy money is NOT hard to come by, you just need the right people making the right calls. Don't underestimate the number of enthusiasts that have money to spare. Just don't expect them to throw money at poorly organized projects.

As for my own contribution, I do invest my own money, but do not wish to discuss my initiatives over a message board.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Canada at the Olypmiad

So what you're saying is almost every organizer in Canada should just stop organizing, other than maybe one or two? Yup, I'm sure that will do wonders for chess in Canada.

Yes, that's what he wants, and not because it will do wonders for chess in Canada.

Hebert wants a wholesale change, from weekend swisses that return entry fees minus expenses to more prestigious sponsored events across Canada that he can travel to year round. It would be a financial windfall for Hebert, as he would easily finish top 3 in every event plus rake in simul fees and lecture fees.

If it takes a wholesale purge of existing organizers to get this to happen, so be it according to Jean. It matters little to Jean if the "basement dwellers" (that's his term, not mine) lose out by having far fewer weekend events to attend, and instead have to pony up higher entry fees to help defray the costs of Jean's red carpet treatment.

Anyone who is a fanboy of Hebert's and calls him Canadian Champion with reverence is conveniently ignoring this aspect of his character. One has to look at the whole person. There's a word for what he is, much more graphic than what I've used in the past, too graphic to post here.

He hides it as best he can, calling himself an author and a coach, as if he's got other people's interests in mind. But for those with eyes to see and ears to hear, the truth is out there. Brian Profit, with his posts on this thread, is one of those and I applaud him for getting the voice of the 99% of players heard.

Meanwhile, to the organizers across Canada, I say, keep up your good work! Hebert be damned.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Canada at the Olypmiad

Paul,

I indeed live in Quebec. Companies have millions of reasons to invest in chess. Most often, they have someone working there that has played seriously at one point in their lives and wish to give back to the community. Some businesses like to be associated with the game of kings (whatever that is) or to a highly intellectual activity. Others need to invest in non-profit organizations. Etc, etc, etc.... Furthermore, investment in chess is relatively cheap: for 5000$, you could have your company name plastered everywhere in the chess tournament. I work closely with pharmaceuticals that pay 10 times this amount for barely nothing.

Yes, my own contribution can be considered "sympathy money", but I get to invest in a game that has given me a lot through the years and i can even get a tax break in some cases (nice bonus but not essential). Sympathy money is NOT hard to come by, you just need the right people making the right calls. Don't underestimate the number of enthusiasts that have money to spare. Just don't expect them to throw money at poorly organized projects.

As for my own contribution, I do invest my own money, but do not wish to discuss my initiatives over a message board.

Fair enough, Marc. I would like to believe what you say about sympathy money not being hard to come by, but other organizers say otherwise. I'm not involved in chess organization in any way, so I, like perhaps many others, don't know where the truth lies. Perhaps if you know a lot of people that can invest and would if asked, you can do chess in Canada a favor and put them in touch with some organizers?

I've been pretty critical of Jean Hebert as you may have seen, but it's only because he's so antagonistic and appears to be entirely selfish. He has no sense of diplomacy whatsoever. I have not seen him yet ever admit to being wrong on anything, and in fact, the very act of implying he's wrong on something leads to a personal attack from Jean. There's a real psychological problem there.

What chess in Canada needs is someone who's both activist and diplomat. Perhaps yourself?

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Canada at the Olypmiad

...the reality of things is that the CFC has been run for the last few decades by level 1 organizers (with one or two exceptions), that are satisfied with simply collecting entry fees and giving back the little that is left after expenses and then saying to justify themselves that "everyone had a good time."

Only in chess do we find people thinking that it is enough....

Only in chess do we find people thinking that it is enough.... because only in chess do we have a game that the general public cares NOTHING about. Even bowling gets on TV, even DARTS gets on TV. Don't even bring up Europe, that's a whole different world, and as the game of soccer has found out, you can't simply export European culture to North America and expect it to catch on like wildfire with the natives.

Now, Jean, please indulge us for a moment, because what I'm about to ask is very important. All the examples you've given of sponsorship are from events within Quebec. There might be one or two prominent others from outside Quebec, but the bulk of sponsored events, 80 or 90% of them it would seem, are in Quebec.

Now, given that, are we to assume that organizers in Quebec are ambitious and driven, getting better and more efficient, and everywhere else in Canada they are none of this?

If your answer is yes, then please give us your take of why this might be the case. What is so special about Quebec in this regard? If organizers outside of Quebec are as bad as you claim, what are the underlying reasons?

I really wonder: if you were to transplant some organizer that you consider higher than "level 1" from Quebec into B.C. or into Ontario and ask him or her to reproduce his or her successes in Quebec, would they in fact be able to do this?

The one glaring difference we can all see in Quebec is provincial government involvement in chess organization. Is it possible that this government involvement has created an artificial environment of chess sponsorship (via direct matched funding, or more likely, indirect means such as tax breaks, which companies LOVE)?

Is it possible that you see this all around you in Quebec and that you are blind to it when you write about "level 1" organizers? In other words, most organizers outside of Quebec might be doing as much work as those inside Quebec, but without government help, the results are quite different?

The only other glaring difference, of course, is the language. If you're going to make a case for THAT being a cause, i.e. something like "Anglophone organizers are lazier than Francophone organizers".... this could become the most vitriolic thread in Chesstalk history!

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Canada at the Olypmiad

Just a reminder that if funding does not come through the B team is ready...

Unofficial pay-your-own-way grassroots team
1st board: Vlad Drkulec
2nd board: Paul Beckwith
3rd board: Gary Ruben
4th board: Ed Seedhouse
5th board: Bob Gillanders
6th board: Paul Bonham

Ok, I saw this quote from The Watchmen and here's the deal:

if this grassroots team goes, we will during all games wear T-shirts that say:

"We're not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with us!"

[David Ottosen]

Re: Canada at the Olypmiad

While you guys are getting your jollies from laughing at Jean, he would have been a fine addition to the team. He's very well known in the correspondence chess circles, as well as across Canada and would have brought interest to the team. His games, and probably the rest of the team, would be watched.

Agree wholeheartedly. His chess qualifications are without question.

It might even have brought some donations for the teams.

That's a pretty big might. In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb and say there is zero difference between the donations with or without him.

If it wasn't for the players the organizers wouldn't be needed. Judging from the number of active players in Canada, I'd say many of the players have voted with their feet.

So have the organizers. I believe a top player needs the services of a strong organizer more than an organizer needs the services of the top players since I believe a tournament can be just as successful, if not more, through volume of players instead of quality.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Canada at the Olypmiad

I would rather have my money for myself and not to promote someone else's career or hobbies.

Hear, hear! I wish that more people felt this way. Then we wouldn't be bailing out GM or building hockey arenas or paying for hosting the Winter Olympics or a myriad of other projects funded with taxpayer dollars. The way things work now if the majority want to steal money from the minority to fund their pet projects, then they get funded. It's criminal.

[Brian Profit]

Re: Canada at the Olypmiad

I thought you would like it. I was actually thinking about you when I wrote it.

[Aris Marghetis]

Re: Canada at the Olypmiad

Paul,

I indeed live in Quebec. Companies have millions of reasons to invest in chess. Most often, they have someone working there that has played seriously at one point in their lives and wish to give back to the community. Some businesses like to be associated with the game of kings (whatever that is) or to a highly intellectual activity. Others need to invest in non-profit organizations. Etc, etc, etc.... Furthermore, investment in chess is relatively cheap: for 5000$, you could have your company name plastered everywhere in the chess tournament. I work closely with pharmaceuticals that pay 10 times this amount for barely nothing.

Yes, my own contribution can be considered "sympathy money", but I get to invest in a game that has given me a lot through the years and i can even get a tax break in some cases (nice bonus but not essential). Sympathy money is NOT hard to come by, you just need the right people making the right calls. Don't underestimate the number of enthusiasts that have money to spare. Just don't expect them to throw money at poorly organized projects.

As for my own contribution, I do invest my own money, but do not wish to discuss my initiatives over a message board.

Hi Marc, I would be interested in chatting with you to try and learn a few things. I am originally from Montreal, and sometimes visit, or I could gladly pay for the phone call.

Thanks and regards,

My email address is :
arismarghetis at rogers dot com

[Brian Profit]

Re: Canada at the Olypmiad

Then you wouldn't hold a position of organizing chess if you weren't interested in building the game and the strength of the players. Is that correct?

I don't intend to donate.

It's pretty hard to lead. You see, the CFC has the FIDE lemonade stand. Organizers should be doing things that benefit the players or they should step aside. The organizers are no slouches when it comes to trying to exploit the titled players. Can't you hear it? Come play in our Canadian Open. Look at all the foreign GM's who have entered. Last time I looked there weren't any Canadian GM's. Why do you suppose that it?

I pointed this out a few years ago and suggested right here on Chess Talk that the CFC build a members server and organize and run events so they would be more relevent in the internet chess age. I don't mention it much anymore because I'm not sure they would know how to make the most of such a server.

I have organized events before. For players to play. Not every event needs to have the goal of creating a world champion. Some events are just for fun to play in. If someone wants to get better, or "build" the game, that is their problem.

Organizers are doing things to benefit the players - they are giving them a chance to play. Anything else is their problem. And maybe there are no Canadian GMs playing because there are not that many and they need to go out and earn a living in a country that does not value their skills as chess players. That is the reality of Canada. Why people do not get it is beyond me. Anyone who thinks that Canada will be a chess power is detached from reality. And I would like it to be! But I am a realist.

[Jean Hébert]

Re: Canada at the Olypmiad

So what you're saying is almost every organizer in Canada should just stop organizing, other than maybe one or two?

Are you saying that almost every organizer in Canada, you included, has no interest in finding sponsorship, no interest in doing things better, no interest in becoming a more effective organizer to develop chess and thus give more to the community ?

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: Canada at the Olypmiad

Are you saying that almost every organizer in Canada, you included, has no interest in finding sponsorship, no interest in doing things better, no interest in becoming a more effective organizer to develop chess and thus give more to the community ?

No, I was paraphrasing what you said, which was that there are only 1 or 2 organizers in Canada who can do things properly and the rest should just quit.

Even IF there were organizers who have no interest in getting better at it, in my opinion that's still no reason for them to quit. If you don't like their events, then you don't play in them. Other people do like their events, and do play in them.