Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

At risk of offending some people...

Just how entitled are people becoming these days?? If someone is good enough to play in the World Junior, then they should be good enough to win the Canadian Junior. All the talk and back-talk about the CYCC rules lately really annoyed me too. Why should *anyone* (with the possible exception of the previous year's champion) be allowed to bypass any level of the qualification program?

So yes, actually, someone (me) WOULD object to anyone being able to just buy their way out of the qualification procedures. Especially considering that they are not actually buying their way out, since none of their money is staying in Canada, and since that removes participation from the events, which is a big problem with the Junior especially!

Seriously. If you want to make the Provincial YCCs succeed, you need to make them mandatory with very few or no exceptions. Just as CMA has (quite successfully) done with the Chess Challenge. And there should be NO reason for anyone to be able to skip the national championships and still go on to World's, except maybe Jason Cao as a World Champion.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

... Why should *anyone* (with the possible exception of the previous year's champion) be allowed to bypass any level of the qualification program? ...

Uh, how about because the CFC itself lost the right to mandate serious qualification criteria considering that CYCCs of the past featured players who didn't even have ratings. The CFC saw the way to bypass all the pesky work to qualifying people and decided to just streamline the whole process by letting anyone with money pay and play. Now guess what? People want the process even more streamlined and figure to bypass the CFC entirely. It is the logical conclusion to the policy implemented about fifteen years ago.

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

Some in the CFC have been trying to change that, partly by formalizing the lower-tier YCCs. Momentum *can* go either way.

[Stuart Brammall]

Re: Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

I think we will both agree that we have to work on making our National competitions into showcase events. What you and your committee did for the CYCC was awesome...you set the bar very high...where it should be!

SO we have to determine our priorities...what we can support...and to what extent.

We have to make things very clear so that everyone knows the rules before we start playing :)

MOST IMPORTANT...WE MUST ENCOURAGE EXCELLENCE!

Someone once said to me...if you can't organize an event that you are totally proud of...then do not accept the challenge :). I now subscribe to that philosophy :)

So basically, what you are saying is..."Cash is King"...regardless of ability?

My intent is not to be nasty...but chess organizations in Canada should and MUST determine criteria.

Example: In Ontario, for the Chess Challenge, thanks to Leslie Armstrong, you MUST qualify to play...no exceptions.

We must recognize and encourage excellence...and our National competitions should be real National events!

I truly appreciate your hard work. You are an asset to our community. Please do not take this as a negative comment.

(...)

So what I am asking is that Canada support the top players in the country.

Period.

Those who have cash...use it to get better...but no free passes to world events.

Hi Larry,

Are these two opinion you have expressed not in conflict with one another? I realize that you are talking about two different events-- but they are both national championships.

The problem with the YCC qualification system we had until this month was that the YCCs would have had an incredible difference in the strength of the players... to the point that the OYCC would potentially have been a stonger event then the CYCC. Would you extend the opinion that their should be no free passes to world events and say there should be no free passes to CYCC and the Canadian Closed? Surely qualifying people through tournaments, which are always regional in their participants, would lead to many of the best players not qualifying simply because they live in a more competetive region.

For any who do not know, it was recently passed that the top ten players in each CYCC category would be pre-qualified.

It is my opinion, as opposed to Chris', that the current CYCC qualification rules attempt a compromise between having the best quality event, with the strongst participants, and a qualification system which offers rewards for participation in lower level events, thereby promoting participation.

Also, it should be clear that players who qualify by rating for the CYCC are the most battle-hardened of all chess playing youth in Canada-- it hardly seems a free pass to me, when they have participated in events for years to reach the level they are at. Asking them to play in a qualification event where they may out-rate there opponents by five or six hundred points seems somewhat silly.

CFC Governor
Stuart Brammall

[Larry Bevand]

Re: Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

Hi Larry,

Are these two opinion you have expressed not in conflict with one another? I realize that you are talking about two different events-- but they are both national championships.

The problem with the YCC qualification system we had until this month was that the YCCs would have had an incredible difference in the strength of the players... to the point that the OYCC would potentially have been a stonger event then the CYCC. Would you extend the opinion that their should be no free passes to world events and say there should be no free passes to CYCC and the Canadian Closed? Surely qualifying people through tournaments, which are always regional in their participants, would lead to many of the best players not qualifying simply because they live in a more competetive region.

For any who do not know, it was recently passed that the top ten players in each CYCC category would be pre-qualified.

It is my opinion, as opposed to Chris', that the current CYCC qualification rules attempt a compromise between having the best quality event, with the strongst participants, and a qualification system which offers rewards for participation in lower level events, thereby promoting participation.

Also, it should be clear that players who qualify by rating for the CYCC are the most battle-hardened of all chess playing youth in Canada-- it hardly seems a free pass to me, when they have participated in events for years to reach the level they are at. Asking them to play in a qualification event where they may out-rate there opponents by five or six hundred points seems somewhat silly.

CFC Governor
Stuart Brammall

For the Ontario (and Quebec) Chess Challenge, the top 10 players in each grade, by CMA rating, are invited directly to the provincial competition.

For the CYCC, I have no problem with the top X players in the country in each category, qualifying directly to the National Championship.

In otherwords, rating and performance over the previous year(s) matter...but these are based on results and not on $$$

So then the question is...I am the top CFC rated youngster in Canada in...under 8 years old for example...why can't I play in the World event directly?

Good question :)

If we decide that this individual has every right to play at the World level...do we not also have a financial responsibility?

In otherwords...even if I am the highest rated player in my category in Canada...

if my family can not afford the trip...does this mean I sit out?


Larry

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

Hi Bob,

So basically, what you are saying is..."Cash is King"...regardless of ability?

My intent is not to be nasty...but chess organizations in Canada should and MUST determine criteria.

Larry

Larry, so help me out then. It appears I am totally unable to make any seemingly harmless comment without ending up stepping in it up to my eyeballs in shit.:o What I meant to say was "I hope you plan on playing in the Canadian Junior Championship, and that that is necessary if you wish to be Canada's official representative in India."

Larry - since he will be in India this summer, wants to play, willing to pay his own way, are you expecting the CFC to forbid him from playing at the World Junior Championship? Does the CFC have that right? Does he need permission from the CFC? Who can answer this question? I will email Michael and Hal, maybe they know.

[Larry Bevand]

Re: Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

Larry, so help me out then. It appears I am totally unable to make any seemingly harmless comment without ending up stepping in it up to my eyeballs in shit.:o What I meant to say was "I hope you plan on playing in the Canadian Junior Championship, and that that is necessary if you wish to be Canada's official representative in India."

Larry - since he will be in India this summer, wants to play, willing to pay his own way, are you expecting the CFC to forbid him from playing at the World Junior Championship? Does the CFC have that right? Does he need permission from the CFC? Who can answer this question? I will email Michael and Hal, maybe they know.

Hi Bob,

Yes I believe the CFC should say No and I believe they have every right to do so.

People who play at the World level should EARN the right. It should be an earned right and not something based on being at the right place at the right time with the necessary financing...either they are our chosen Canadian representatives based on ability....or they stay home!

PERIOD.

Michael and Hal may not agree.

I have lived on the wrong side of the fence for a long time :)

Larry

[Stuart Brammall]

Re: Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

Thanks for the clarification Larry,

I'm not sure what the rules are regarding WYCC or World Junior participation for individuals who are not "official representatives", but surely such things must be regarded as the province of FIDE or the events respective organisers.

What I mean is that suppose Sanjiv had not posted here asking if Agastya needed to play in the Can Junior, and they just went to India and registered for the Worl Junior-- if the organizers let you register without being an official representative then we have no power whatsoever to stop you from playing, unless we were to ban you from playing in CFC events or some such... something we will oubviously not be doing.

I should say also that it is my hope too that Agastya will make it to this years Canadian Junior... regarless of the rewards and prizes involved it is the most competetive junior event in Canada, and will be a great event.

[Larry Bevand]

Re: Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

Thanks for the clarification Larry,

I'm not sure what the rules are regarding WYCC or World Junior participation for individuals who are not "official representatives", but surely such things must be regarded as the province of FIDE or the events respective organisers.

What I mean is that suppose Sanjiv had not posted here asking if Agastya needed to play in the Can Junior, and they just went to India and registered for the Worl Junior-- if the organizers let you register without being an official representative then we have no power whatsoever to stop you from playing, unless we were to ban you from playing in CFC events or some such... something we will oubviously not be doing.

I should say also that it is my hope too that Agastya will make it to this years Canadian Junior... regarless of the rewards and prizes involved it is the most competetive junior event in Canada, and will be a great event.

Hi Stuart,

Yes the problem starts at the top.

In the old days, each country could send only 1 player...and the host country would foot the bill for lodging and food. The national federation paid airfare. If a country finished in the top 3at the previous event...they could send a 2nd representative...expenses paid. The national federation paid the airfare.

Then FIDE opened up the event...and the CFC did likewise for their National events. Today, sadly, excellence has taken a back seat to the ability to pay.

So what you ask is a good question. If I have a student interested in playing in the world junior...and I find financing for this...can I simply ignore our National Federation and register directly with the World event?

If so...why should anyone care about the National championships?

Larry

[Stuart Brammall]

Re: Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

Tournaments have value without being qualification events... why else would amateur events exist at all? I am sure Morgon Mills is not playing in planning to play in the Canadian Closed solely for the chance at qualifying for the world cup---

If you don't care to play in the strongest event in Canada without it being a qualification event, then quite frankly what bussiness do you have being Canadian Champion at all?


Finally I have one further comment on the issue of money.
You recognize that it is possible to bypass the qualification system if you have money for the trip to India--- but travel cost is a reality in when dealing with small events too. Last year's Canadian Junior at Hart House saw only Ontario participants. Why did nobody from out of province make the trip? (I believe they may have been offered free or discounted entry) What difference is there between individuals who cannot afford to trip to India, and those who cannot afford the trip to Toronto to qualify?

Stuart

[Larry Bevand]

Re: Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

Tournaments have value without being qualification events... why else would amateur events exist at all? I am sure Morgon Mills is not playing in planning to play in the Canadian Closed solely for the chance at qualifying for the world cup---

If you don't care to play in the strongest event in Canada without it being a qualification event, then quite frankly what bussiness do you have being Canadian Champion at all?


Finally I have one further comment on the issue of money.
You recognize that it is possible to bypass the qualification system if you have money for the trip to India--- but travel cost is a reality in when dealing with small events too. Last year's Canadian Junior at Hart House saw only Ontario participants. Why did nobody from out of province make the trip? (I believe they may have been offered free or discounted entry) What difference is there between individuals who cannot afford to trip to India, and those who cannot afford the trip to Toronto to qualify?

Stuart

I recognize that it is the sad reality of today.

In the old days when there was regional representation at the Canadian Junior...the provincial Associations contributed to the trip to the Nationals and the organizers of the National event picked up the tab on-site.

Excellence should be encouraged at ALL levels!

If a youngster wins the Canadian Chess Challenge regional championship in his/her grade...then I believe the school he/she attends and the community he lives in...should participate in his/her success in every way.

[Kerry Liles]

Re: Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

Hi Bob,

Yes I believe the CFC should say No and I believe they have every right to do so.

People who play at the World level should EARN the right. It should be an earned right and not something based on being at the right place at the right time with the necessary financing...either they are our chosen Canadian representatives based on ability....or they stay home!

PERIOD.

Michael and Hal may not agree.

I have lived on the wrong side of the fence for a long time :)

Larry

I am far from certain on this, but I believe FIDE does not really place any restrictions on who can play in the WYCC. If that is the case, anyone of the right age who shows up likely could play... Coming from FIDE that would not surprise me - to *them* cash is king for sure.

[Larry Bevand]

Re: Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

I am far from certain on this, but I believe FIDE does not really place any restrictions on who can play in the WYCC. If that is the case, anyone of the right age who shows up likely could play... Coming from FIDE that would not surprise me - to *them* cash is king for sure.

Hi Kerry,

That would not surprise me either.

Larry

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

I am far from certain on this, but I believe FIDE does not really place any restrictions on who can play in the WYCC. If that is the case, anyone of the right age who shows up likely could play...

It depends how strictly they follow their own rules ( ) "each federation shall be entitled to register any number of participants" - http://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.ht...7&view=article

There are no regulations about possibility to register directly by participants. Everything which is not forbidden is allowed or everything which is not allowed is forbidden

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Canadian Junior U20 Chess Championship 2011 - Open & Girls

Do we need to play in the Canadian Junior Championship to go to the World, as Agastya will be in India anyway during the holidays?

Upon reflection and consultation, we should expect Agastya to at least play in our national junior championship in Mississauga to be eligible to play in the world championship in India. That would be in keeping with the spirit of the regulations we passed regarding playing in the CYCC to be eligible to play in the WYCC.

Of course, I should have thought of all this before saying anything at all. ;)