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The motion has some looseness - Bidders for the Canadian Championships shall take into account in their bids this section 811 of section 8 of the Handbook, and if they intend to exempt themselves from any of the conditions herein, they shall clearly note such in their bids, so the CFC can determine whether such bids will be accepted"
... Mark wanted the higher standards, and got them through the 2010 AGM - more accolades to him. But I consider that he still has a role in promoting his view as to why high standards is a good thing. I was opining that if he were not so busy, and currently somewhat out of touch, it would be great to have him join Jean in the spirited defence of 2010 AGM Motion 2010-13 - Canadian Championship standards. Here was the vote in favour of the motion:
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
The motion has some looseness - Bidders for the Canadian Championships shall take into account in their bids this section 811 of section 8 of the Handbook, and if they intend to exempt themselves from any of the conditions herein, they shall clearly note such in their bids, so the CFC can determine whether such bids will be accepted"
that's true but it does serve to set expectations and a benchmark whereby anything different will be criticized.
That CFC Handbook Section 8 on Canadian Championships be amended as follows:
1. Section 801 be deleted, except for the section reference, and the following substituted for it:
“ Canadian Championship and Canadian Zonal Tournament:
A Canadian Championship shall be held each year. But there can be substituted for it a Championship Tournament known as the "Canadian Zonal Championship Tournament", hereinafter referred to as the "Zonal Tournament", which shall normally be held in Canada to coincide with the FIDE World Championship cycle. The winner of the Zonal Tournament will be that year’s Canadian Champion. “
2. there be added before the words “ the Zonal tournament “ wherever they occur, the words “ the Canadian Championship or “in the following sections: 803. Players; 804. Provincial Champion ( a ) and ( b ); 805. Rating Requirements (a ); 806. Additional Places; 807. Citizenship and Residency for Canadian Championship; 808. Entries;
3. that there be added to Section 803 on “ Players “ a subsection ( h ) as follows: ( h ) the Canadian Women’s Closed Champion;
4. Section 811 on “ Prize Fund “ be deleted and the following substituted for it:
811. ( a ) Each player will be responsible for paying his own entry fee, accommodation and meal expenses with the exception of the following:
( i ) the Canadian Champion and Runner-Up shall have their entry fee, accommodation and meal expenses paid by the tournament organizers;
(ii ) free entry shall be given to IM’s and GM’s;
( iii ) free accommodation should be provided for GM’s;
( b ) The organizers shall provide a prize fund; part of this obligation shall be to make a significant effort to find sponsors;
( c ) For the Zonal Tournament, first prize shall be travel to the next round of the world championship cycle and a cash prize of at least 20% of the balance of the prize fund. With the exception of the travel prize, cash prizes will be shared by players in the same score group and not be subject to tie-break.
( d ) Bidders for the Canadian Championships shall take into account in their bids this section 811 of section 8 of the Handbook, and if they intend to exempt themselves from any of the conditions herein, they shall clearly note such in their bids, so the CFC can determine whether such bids will be accepted.
5. Section 812 on “ Travel “ be amended by adding after the heading the words “ for the Zonal Tournament “;
Commentary:
Though this section of the Handbook is entitled Canadian Championships, it then goes on to only deal with the Canadian Zonal Championship Tournament. It should refer as well to the Canadian Championship in non-zonal years. Our amendments correct this deficiency.
We also feel that in the interest of promoting women’s chess in Canada, the Canadian Women’s Champion should be a player entitled to play in the Canadian Championships and we have added her into section 803.
The Canadian Closed Championships ( both zonal and non-zonal ) have lost some of their prestige in recent years. Many of the top Canadian players have not played in recent Canadian Championships. We hope that the quality and importance of the tournament comes back. We have provided some guidelines for what we believe to be a bare minimum for the Closed Championships, in an attempt to standardize and improve the event. We have made these conditions a part of the bidding process by organizers of the Closeds. First of all we have added to the Procedures that the Canadian Champion and Runner-up are entitled to preferential treatment, to accord with their positions in the Canadian chess community – to the current payment for them of their accommodation, we have added entry fee and meals.. In order to encourage Canadian GM’s and IM’s to attend, raising the quality of the Closeds, we have had the organizers give them free entry. And to recognize Canadian GM’s, of whom there are not many, we have added that the organizers must pay for their accommodation. We recognize that these expenses may be difficult to cover only through entry fees, so we have added that organizers must make significant efforts to obtain sponsorships, to help cover all tournament costs.
From 2010-11 GL # 1 ( Minutes of Outgoing Governors 2010 AGM ):
Armstrong: Mark Bluvshtein said the Closed can be improved. Includes Zonal & non-Zonal.
More respectful to GMs, IMs. Free entry for GMs, IMs; free accommodation for GMs. Ask
organizer to find a sponsor; make the effort, not dictating; can opt out with your bid, but sends a
message to potential organizers.
Ritchie: We don't have a lot of bidders. Easier or more difficult to attract organizers? Hard to
attract sponsors to an event with few players. Afraid this will end it.
Evans: FIDE Regulations on Zonals?
Mallon: Single Zone (such as Canada) is exempted.
Brodie: Hébert shown this?
Armstrong: Title is from the Handbook. Re: Hébert - he's a Governor, and it's also on Chess Talk.
Vote:
YES: 23.
NO: 10.
ABSTAIN: 1 (I.Bluvshtein).
Motion passed.
Mark also moved Motion 2010-14 which dealt with improving the conditions of " important tournaments in Canada " - see 2010-11 GL # 1 - 2010 AGM Minutes.
If an organizer determines that he needs an exemption from a " condition ", then it is true he might be criticized for delivering a less than optimal Closed.
But if the governors accept the bid, then it is their obligation to come to the defence of the organizer, and explain why in this particular case, the exemption is reasonable and practical.
Of course, then the CFC will come under criticism as well !
But this is not an argument against high Closed standards. We should try to achieve excellence, though from time to time, it may be we have to accept less than optimal. And the more often the high standard is met, the more it is hard to argue that it is untenable.
Bob
Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Tuesday, 8th February, 2011, 06:24 PM.
That CFC Handbook Section 8 on Canadian Championships be amended as follows:
1. Section 801 be deleted, except for the section reference, and the following substituted for it:
“ Canadian Championship and Canadian Zonal Tournament:
A Canadian Championship shall be held each year. But there can be substituted for it a Championship Tournament known as the "Canadian Zonal Championship Tournament", hereinafter referred to as the "Zonal Tournament", which shall normally be held in Canada to coincide with the FIDE World Championship cycle. The winner of the Zonal Tournament will be that year’s Canadian Champion. “
2. there be added before the words “ the Zonal tournament “ wherever they occur, the words “ the Canadian Championship or “in the following sections: 803. Players; 804. Provincial Champion ( a ) and ( b ); 805. Rating Requirements (a ); 806. Additional Places; 807. Citizenship and Residency for Canadian Championship; 808. Entries;
3. that there be added to Section 803 on “ Players “ a subsection ( h ) as follows: ( h ) the Canadian Women’s Closed Champion;
4. Section 811 on “ Prize Fund “ be deleted and the following substituted for it:
811. ( a ) Each player will be responsible for paying his own entry fee, accommodation and meal expenses with the exception of the following:
( i ) the Canadian Champion and Runner-Up shall have their entry fee, accommodation and meal expenses paid by the tournament organizers;
(ii ) free entry shall be given to IM’s and GM’s;
( iii ) free accommodation should be provided for GM’s;
( b ) The organizers shall provide a prize fund; part of this obligation shall be to make a significant effort to find sponsors;
( c ) For the Zonal Tournament, first prize shall be travel to the next round of the world championship cycle and a cash prize of at least 20% of the balance of the prize fund. With the exception of the travel prize, cash prizes will be shared by players in the same score group and not be subject to tie-break.
( d ) Bidders for the Canadian Championships shall take into account in their bids this section 811 of section 8 of the Handbook, and if they intend to exempt themselves from any of the conditions herein, they shall clearly note such in their bids, so the CFC can determine whether such bids will be accepted.
5. Section 812 on “ Travel “ be amended by adding after the heading the words “ for the Zonal Tournament “;
Commentary:
Though this section of the Handbook is entitled Canadian Championships, it then goes on to only deal with the Canadian Zonal Championship Tournament. It should refer as well to the Canadian Championship in non-zonal years. Our amendments correct this deficiency.
We also feel that in the interest of promoting women’s chess in Canada, the Canadian Women’s Champion should be a player entitled to play in the Canadian Championships and we have added her into section 803.
The Canadian Closed Championships ( both zonal and non-zonal ) have lost some of their prestige in recent years. Many of the top Canadian players have not played in recent Canadian Championships. We hope that the quality and importance of the tournament comes back. We have provided some guidelines for what we believe to be a bare minimum for the Closed Championships, in an attempt to standardize and improve the event. We have made these conditions a part of the bidding process by organizers of the Closeds. First of all we have added to the Procedures that the Canadian Champion and Runner-up are entitled to preferential treatment, to accord with their positions in the Canadian chess community – to the current payment for them of their accommodation, we have added entry fee and meals.. In order to encourage Canadian GM’s and IM’s to attend, raising the quality of the Closeds, we have had the organizers give them free entry. And to recognize Canadian GM’s, of whom there are not many, we have added that the organizers must pay for their accommodation. We recognize that these expenses may be difficult to cover only through entry fees, so we have added that organizers must make significant efforts to obtain sponsorships, to help cover all tournament costs.
From 2010-11 GL # 1 ( Minutes of Outgoing Governors 2010 AGM ):
Armstrong: Mark Bluvshtein said the Closed can be improved. Includes Zonal & non-Zonal.
More respectful to GMs, IMs. Free entry for GMs, IMs; free accommodation for GMs. Ask
organizer to find a sponsor; make the effort, not dictating; can opt out with your bid, but sends a
message to potential organizers.
Ritchie: We don't have a lot of bidders. Easier or more difficult to attract organizers? Hard to
attract sponsors to an event with few players. Afraid this will end it.
Evans: FIDE Regulations on Zonals?
Mallon: Single Zone (such as Canada) is exempted.
Brodie: Hébert shown this?
Armstrong: Title is from the Handbook. Re: Hébert - he's a Governor, and it's also on Chess Talk.
Vote:
YES: 23.
NO: 10.
ABSTAIN: 1 (I.Bluvshtein).
Motion passed.
Mark also moved Motion 2010-14 which dealt with improving the conditions of " important tournaments in Canada " - see 2010-11 GL # 1 - 2010 AGM Minutes.
Bob
HI Bob;
I think the idea that organizers should make an effort to find sponsors should have been "Organizers must have secured sponsorship before they can make a bid".
If you have sponsors then you have a top notch event anything else is sub-standard and should not be considered for a bid.
John Herbert is correct without proper sponsorship the closed is a below standards event.
I do not know the standards of the last closed as I was not there. So I cannot comment on that.
Some of the old Governors should realize that chess does not work under your old ideas and you should make ways for the smarter and better well organized ideas. Your ways just don't cut it, so get on with the future the past is gone.
So you think (or imply) that there is at least one tournament out there where the organizer (and TD) make a decent wage.
Perhaps you could educate me and name one tournament in the last 12 months where the combination of organizer and TD made a decent wage. For the sake of not argueing, I'll accept the provincial statutory minimum wage as a 'decent wage' - not that I really consider that a decent wage. I won't even insist on overtime pay for a day exceeding 8 hours. My guess would be that there was not one tournament in Canada that meets that condition. TD's sometimes (rarely) get enough money to be minimum wage or more for their TD time but that doesn't include the organizational effort.
As to the lack of organizers, I can think of several more reasons other than the one you cite (the patent unrealism of the motion on 'minimum conditions')
1) we all know that last year's tournament organized under short notice was met by insults and carping masquerading as 'constructive criticism' of the organizer. Whatever the merit of the complaints, they were not delivered in a constructive manner. But more to the point, the tournament was not organized in a vacuum. It was presumably authorized by the then executive (or even by all the governers for all I know) who accepted the conditions of the bid. Those who approved the bid did not fully stand up to support the organizer and defend their own responsibility for the event. So, the organizer's lot for accepting a job under short notice is a lack of appreciation for his effort, public chastisement, and a lack of support from those approving his bid. Who needs that?
2) You assume that we all agree with the philosophical underpinnings of that motion. On the scale where one end is a tournament to determine first among equals, where resources that are available are divided more or less evenly apart from prizes, and the competition is primarily for the glory and achievement of becoming Canadian champion and the other end where some people are considered professionals and must be paid for their participation with others whose only role is to be present and pay an entry fee, that motion is clearly tilted to the latter. Well, the governers seem to agree with that view, and if that's the kind of championship they want, they are entitled to demand it. But those who disagree with that view are not going to submit a bid.
There were 23 people who voted for that motion. I would think that you should ask each of those to organize the Closed under the conditions of the motion. If they are not interested in undertaking the job, then their support for that motion is not very meaningful is it?
An early favorite for post of the year! Bang dead on.
Only the rushing is heard...
Onward flies the bird.
HI Bob;
I think the idea that organizers should make an effort to find sponsors should have been "Organizers must have secured sponsorship before they can make a bid".
If you have sponsors then you have a top notch event anything else is sub-standard and should not be considered for a bid.
John Herbert is correct without proper sponsorship the closed is a below standards event.
I do not know the standards of the last closed as I was not there. So I cannot comment on that.
Some of the old Governors should realize that chess does not work under your old ideas and you should make ways for the smarter and better well organized ideas. Your ways just don't cut it, so get on with the future the past is gone.
"John Hebert", now there's top notch for you! Great work showing us all what high standards you are all about.
Hey, "Jean Brown", we ARE getting on with the future. It's full of no sponsors, no CC, and plenty more Kevin Spraggett jokes about the state of chess in Canada. The sponsors took one look at JH putting the knife in the back of Hal Bond and said, we don't want any part of that. So there's your future.
"Jean", did you ever have a "below standards" Christmas when you were growing up? You know, one bad year when money was tight and there were no decorations, no turkey dinner, no extravagant gifts.... but despite all that, there was a "something" that no other Christmas had.... a spark of life... and that Christmas stands above all other Christmases in your memory, makes you smile more than any of the flashier ones?
If not, I feel sorry for you. Your "standards" deny you the true experience of what a CC should be all about.
Only the rushing is heard...
Onward flies the bird.
I disagree. I don't think Jean's criticisms came off as Jean wanting to trash people (with the exception of the one individual who was clearly and maliciously stalking Jean).
... who was clearly and maliciously stalking HAL BOND, one of the best and most selfless organizers in Canada. Many people came to Hal's defence, but only in a passive manner, that is, making it known how valuable Hal is for Canadian chess. None but I actually attacked Hal's attacker, and for that, I stand proud. The fact that a peanut gallery POS like you doesn't like it means absolutely nothing to me. Same goes for what ANYONE ELSE thinks. You can all suck eggs, which coincidentally is what JH has had all over his face since... well according to his own admission, since 1984.
I think Jean's criticisms and suggestions were well presented. I think the primary problem was that people were determined to take what Jean said personally rather than as food for thought and discussion.
Congratulations, you know people's motivations better than they do themselves. You must be (or were at one time) one of them there "psychiacologists". Yeah, you know what makes people tick. Take that thought to your grave, that's when you'll find out what a dick you were.
"... thought and discussion"??? What you think you got here, moron? Reams and reams of "thought and discussion". You want thought and discussion, go to Bob Armstrong, he'll discuss your ear off and you'll still be as paraplegic as you ever were.
And BTW, to his credit, Hal Bond was one person who did NOT respond to Jean's attacks with reciprocal gibberish. Another proof that Mr. Bond, and not the evil Dr. No, is the person we should be concentrating on here.
That's right, forget JH and his pathetic creepy cronies. All of you who want a 2011 Canadian Closed and are ashamed for not sticking up for Hal Bond in the way that you should have can make up for it, by contacting Hal DIRECTLY and saying "If no one else comes forward as happened last time, we need you again. I throw my complete support behind you and I want you to save the Closed again, and damn anyone who would dare put a knife in your back this time!" And maybe put some money where your mouth is.
The best way to put to rest JH and his down-with-Canadian-chess rants is to take what Hal Bond did for the last Closed and repeat it with DOUBLE the support, DOUBLE the enthusiasm, DOUBLE the spectator participation, and Hal himself at the helm with all your support, and DAMN WHETHER THERE'S ANY GODDAMN EFFING SPONSORS! The sponsors will COME TO YOU when you give them a reason, and what you've found out is that JH and his negativity is nothing but reason for sponsors to stay away. So GIVE them a reason to come back.
But no... you're all a bunch of pansies. JH says he remains optimistic, because he knows none of you have any backbone. Canadian chess, RIP. Have at 'em, Kevin.
Only the rushing is heard...
Onward flies the bird.
Jean, the problem isn't that you brought problems out into the open, it's that you chose to do so in an insulting way by posting them on Chesstalk after the event, rather than mentioning them to the organizers during the event first, when something could be done about at least some of them.
So it just came off as you wanting to trash people, rather than being constructive.
Again you show how little you understand. For a player, getting involved in discussions about tournament organization during the tournament is the best way to ruin his concentration and his result. But of course you would not care about that either. You actually come off as not really caring about anything.
Reading all the shortcomings of the last Closed on Chesstalk was certainly hard to swallow but who was responsible for them ? As you say several small points could have easily been taken care of. But normally nobody has to tell experienced organizers about these obvious but important details.
... who was clearly and maliciously stalking HAL BOND, one of the best and most selfless organizers in Canada. Many people came to Hal's defence, but only in a passive manner, that is, making it known how valuable Hal is for Canadian chess. None but I actually attacked Hal's attacker, and for that, I stand proud. The fact that a peanut gallery POS like you doesn't like it means absolutely nothing to me. Same goes for what ANYONE ELSE thinks. You can all suck eggs, which coincidentally is what JH has had all over his face since... well according to his own admission, since 1984.
Congratulations, you know people's motivations better than they do themselves. You must be (or were at one time) one of them there "psychiacologists". Yeah, you know what makes people tick. Take that thought to your grave, that's when you'll find out what a dick you were.
"... thought and discussion"??? What you think you got here, moron? Reams and reams of "thought and discussion". You want thought and discussion, go to Bob Armstrong, he'll discuss your ear off and you'll still be as paraplegic as you ever were.
And BTW, to his credit, Hal Bond was one person who did NOT respond to Jean's attacks with reciprocal gibberish. Another proof that Mr. Bond, and not the evil Dr. No, is the person we should be concentrating on here.
That's right, forget JH and his pathetic creepy cronies. All of you who want a 2011 Canadian Closed and are ashamed for not sticking up for Hal Bond in the way that you should have can make up for it, by contacting Hal DIRECTLY and saying "If no one else comes forward as happened last time, we need you again. I throw my complete support behind you and I want you to save the Closed again, and damn anyone who would dare put a knife in your back this time!" And maybe put some money where your mouth is.
The best way to put to rest JH and his down-with-Canadian-chess rants is to take what Hal Bond did for the last Closed and repeat it with DOUBLE the support, DOUBLE the enthusiasm, DOUBLE the spectator participation, and Hal himself at the helm with all your support, and DAMN WHETHER THERE'S ANY GODDAMN EFFING SPONSORS! The sponsors will COME TO YOU when you give them a reason, and what you've found out is that JH and his negativity is nothing but reason for sponsors to stay away. So GIVE them a reason to come back.
But no... you're all a bunch of pansies. JH says he remains optimistic, because he knows none of you have any backbone. Canadian chess, RIP. Have at 'em, Kevin.
LOL - the climate change thread is over there ===>
Some Pharmacy must have an overstock of unclaimed anti-psychotic drugs
Again you show how little you understand. For a player, getting involved in discussions about tournament organization during the tournament is the best way to ruin his concentration and his result. But of course you would not care about that either. You actually come off as not really caring about anything.
Reading all the shortcomings of the last Closed on Chesstalk was certainly hard to swallow but who was responsible for them ? As you say several small points could have easily been taken care of. But normally nobody has to tell experienced organizers about these obvious but important details.
Nice, so instead of becoming distracted very briefly - even only long enough to drop off an anonymous note with suggestions where it might be found - you just try to ignore the problems for the whole event.
Well, if they are that ignorable, and they must be since you managed to win, I guess they weren't really all THAT important to you to begin with, and you are just using them as a chance to take shots at Hal and others?
Nice shot at me too... ooh, yeah that's me, I care about nothing.
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