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Bravo! I agree! Why spend so much time and effort complaining when you can take your business elsewhere? That is the question.
Anyway Jean large gap again, Grand Canyon-like... Maybe in your country there is an abundance of red carpet lying around, over here we're in short supply.
You think you see Grand Canyon gaps in other's eyes while your fail to spot your own. Chess organizers are not just competing with other chess organizers for "business". They are competing with many other pastimes. One of my friends, a quite strong chessplayer who used to be crazy about the game (and still plays on ICC) has left tournament chess about a decade ago for curling, which he finds socially way more pleasant than the exausting chess week-ender with uncertain playing conditions. He is not the only one. It is not about red carpets, it is about respecting the people from whom you try to get entry fees. In that respect you are a walking "gap".
Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now
Originally posted by Jean Hébert
Chess organizers are not just competing with other chess organizers for "business". They are competing with many other pastimes.
Yes I realize that. So again, why spend so much time and effort complaining when you can take your business elsewhere? Chess could do with a lot less complainers/ing.
Originally posted by Jean Hébert
One of my friends .. left tournament chess about a decade ago for curling, which he finds socially way more pleasant.
There are a zillion hobbies, sports, pastimes that are more socially pleasant than chess. And a big reason why they are more socially pleasant is because you don't see this massive sense of entitlement many chessplayers possess. Anyway, people have various reasons for leaving whatever hobbies they may have. Maybe since your friend can just hop on to his computer and login to the ICC at anytime in his pajamas he asked himself why make the effort to go out to play in exhausting chess week-enders when I can do this? Online chess has had a huge impact on the game, both positive and negative. The otb tournament scene has definitely taken a hit from it. I'm sure your friend still cares too much for the game to abandon it completely.
Originally posted by Jean Hébert
It is not about red carpets, it is about respecting the people from whom you try to get entry fees.
As Marcus pointed out in a previous thread the door should swing both ways. The organizer provides a service to the player in return for a suitably deemed entry fee. It would be one thing if organizers walked away with huge wads of cash in their pockets. Unfortunately there is zero profit with the current selling conditions and organizers quite often lose a fair amount out of their own pockets. Where is the respect in that?
Unfortunately there is zero profit with the current selling conditions and organizers quite often lose a fair amount out of their own pockets. Where is the respect in that?
Your prizes are not guaranteed and based upon the number of players. TD pays himself first per round and flexible to assign prizes when number of players is not met. How in the world can organizers lose a fair amount out of their pockets if he got the flexibility? What if the number of players exceeded the forecast, will the prizes in each section go up (usually prizes remains are advertised)?
Hi Hugh:
What John Brown has been saying is for the lower rated players to get some relief in their entry fees or give them the same prize fund as everyone who pays the same rate.
John Erickson
In my observations about prize funds and entry fees, you can only find that fair prize fund distributions in HAMILTON tournaments.
Your prizes are not guaranteed and based upon the number of players. TD pays himself first per round and flexible to assign prizes when number of players is not met. How in the world can organizers lose a fair amount out of their pockets if he got the flexibility? What if the number of players exceeded the forecast, will the prizes in each section go up (usually prizes remains are advertised)?
I'm not paying myself at all to help organize this. Do you think I should be?
I'm not paying myself at all to help organize this. Do you think I should be?
You will see who got paid when the expenses accounting will be posted here, I wish, it will be posted after the tournament and you will see who is the biggest winner. The labour day tournament entry fee seems and goes along with gas prizes year after year...it keeps getting higher. The main issues here are the ridiculous high entry fee and unproportionate prize fund distribution. I guess, the PWC Chess Tournament of Brian Fiedler should be considered as the model for Toronto Tournaments. The venue and prize fund are worth the entry fee.
I guess, the PWC Chess Tournament of Brian Fiedler should be considered as the model for Toronto Tournaments. The venue and prize fund are worth the entry fee.
It's very possible I'm mistaken, but I believe that tournament lost a pretty hefty sum of money.
It's very possible I'm mistaken, but I believe that tournament lost a pretty hefty sum of money.
You're not mistaken.
Some people are just ignorant on how things are put together, how it all works, and where the finances go and come from.
Fiedler's PwC may well be a model to aim for in terms of standards, but in no way a practical model if there are financial losses.
You will see who got paid when the expenses accounting will be posted here, I wish, it will be posted after the tournament and you will see who is the biggest winner. The labour day tournament entry fee seems and goes along with gas prizes year after year...it keeps getting higher. The main issues here are the ridiculous high entry fee and unproportionate prize fund distribution. I guess, the PWC Chess Tournament of Brian Fiedler should be considered as the model for Toronto Tournaments. The venue and prize fund are worth the entry fee.
THUD ... &$#%@ ... sorry, just the sound of my head falling on my keyboard.
Financially speaking the biggest winner is way more often than not the player, not the organizer. Unfortunately the vast majority of players, including yourself, have no idea with what's actually involved with running a chess tournament.
Unlike oil companies we are not trying to gouge customers. The Annex Chess Club is non-profit. Any lingering scent of a profit goes right back into the club and subsequently right back out to the player. There is no personal incentive for us whatsoever in trying to bilk players out of money. We're not trying to pull the wool over your eyes. We're trying to put a price correction on entry fees which for a very long time now have been extremely generous to the player. You have gotten so used to these bargain prices that you've come to accept that as the norm. The PwC can be considered as a model chess tournament inasmuch as players getting a fantastic deal. A lot of bang for the buck, fulfilling almost every chessplayers dream of getting as much as possible for very little in return.
Last edited by Hugh Siddeley; Thursday, 11th August, 2011, 12:31 AM.
Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now
Originally posted by John Erickson
Hi Hugh:
...
What John Brown has been saying is for the lower rated players to get some relief in their entry fees or give them the same prize fund as everyone who pays the same rate.
John Erickson
Hi John Erickson,
I'm not sure why you're addressing me in a reply to Marcus Wilker's thread. Almost snuck by me there. Anyway thanks for calling me the voice of the tournament even though if I randomly went to Mexico for the rest of the year the Labour Day would still run without a hitch.
Let's take a quick glance at what else John Brown has said in case you missed it:
"I'm not complaining about the Entry fees if I can afford them I go."
"Why do you have Sunday Start at 10 am when we all know the Subway does not open till 9am"
"Labour Day Open does not want out of town players to show up anyway. Sounds to me that they just want local players who live in Toronto and ride the TTC. They are giving the Annex Chess Club Players a $10 discount."
"I think this year's event will go down in history as a pricy flop."
"I'll make you both a bet [Marcus and Hugh Siddley]. I believe you won't crack 150 players"
"Organizers should secure a site with either their own or sponsorship."
"Hi Alex I would not call the Bathurst Site a Quality site if you play in the big hall."
"the Bathurst site was the worst one I've ever played at.Lighting was the poorest, No Air conditioning in Ontario Open, Kids running in between rooms. Players passing on moves to others ."
"who would want to have a tournament at two different sites anyway?"
"Personally, regardless of cost if you knew you could not have the whole weekend at the Annex Club then a more attractive draw with your high entry fee would have been the Westin."
"Weston Hotel had poor lighting as well so is that an upgrade to larger place?"
"Out of towners who have never been to Toronto Westin or Bathurst would have a nightmare not to mention the expensive parking near Westin."
"I don't really like playing on plastic sets."
"I don't mind Kids coming but I think the Teachers and coaches alike can do two things. #1 teach them the moves first then teach them #2 Chess Ediquitte ( spelling may be wrong don't have a dictionary handy.)"
After all that this one really stands out:
"Hi Roger ; I don't give a rats tail what they do at Labour Day."
THANKS FOR READING!!
btw John Brown, in reply to your "if you knew you could not have the whole weekend at the Annex Club then a more attractive draw with your high entry fee would have been the Westin."
I really don't think you'd like your new entry fee that would need to be raised in order to cover the rental of nearly $5,000/day at the Westin for the other two days. $10,000/150 players. Get a calculator and be prepared to be amazed.
Last edited by Hugh Siddeley; Saturday, 13th August, 2011, 11:46 AM.
I really don't think you'd like your new entry fee that would need to be raised in order to cover the rental of nearly $5,000/day at the Westin for the other two days. $10,000/150 players. Get a calculator and be prepared to be amazed.
For the arithmetically challenged, that works out to $66.67 per player. Space suitable for chess tournaments is very expensive in Toronto. There are many events with deeper pockets than chess players (birthday parties, weddings, business meetings, etc.) that seem to have no problem ponying up the money asked by the owners of hotels, etc. for really nice spaces. Where I work (the Ontario Science Centre) has some nice spaces too but we're not cheap either. It's all supply and demand.
I enjoyed playing at the Ontario Open last year at the Annex Chess Club. There were a few wrinkles but despite them it was a good tournament in a nice location. I understand that problems with the ACC location have been resolved, so I'm really looking forward to the Labour Day Open.
I was talking to Steve Nickoloff after our game at ACC Monday night. He was saying that, for him, an attractive prize fund is one where you can hope to win ten times your entry fee. Right now, with $800/$95 we're a little over eight times in the U2000, and U1600.
The easiest way to fix the prize-to-entry-fee ratio is to raise the entry fee. Prices are relatively fixed, so an increase in entry fee, assuming that we could preserve numbers, would have a disproportionate effect on the prize fund. Even another $5 would put $500 directly into the prize fund, and could be used to put first prizes in the U2000 and U1600 sections up to $1000. $45 - raising entry fees to $140 - could put $4500 into the prize fund, which would help even more.
Another way is numbers. If we could work with a model of 200 rather than 100 players, we could more than double the prize fund. It's not clear what, exactly, would bring more players. I'm not sure lowering entry fees is a silver bullet, especially since the fixed-cost effect works the other way (i.e., half the entry fee would make prizes less than half what they are).
A better way is sponsorship. If we could get a title sponsor for $1000 or $1500 for the Thanksgiving tournament, that would help increase the prize fund without raising entry fees. Anyone who can make helpful suggestions is welcome to. Keep in mind, of course, that CIC runs chess programming for kids in schools, so the sponsor probably couldn't be a poker site, e.g.
Actually, at one point, we were working on a prize fund model that had $1000 prizes in the U1600 and U2000 sections (hitting the magic ten-to-one ratio) and a higher second prize in the Open section, but we changed it to provide class prizes - U1400, U1800, U2200 and unrated.
Re: 2011 Toronto Labour Day Tournament - Register Now
I think it would be a mistake to focus on prizes as the factor which increases or decreases entries. Even though I did win a prize last year, I don't expect to do so this year. Twenty dollars more or less in the entry fee doesn't make much of a dent in a personal tournament budget which will probably run somewhere around $500 or more for the weekend NOT including amounts spent on chess books and chess DVDs. I have to win a prize in order to bring the expense down to that of the non-prize winning typical Toronto player participating in this tournament.
I have previously expounded on my theory that a better and more reliable economic return could be achieved by taking a minimum wage job working at Tim Horton's or some other fast food establishment than in participating in an out of town chess tournament. In my case working three 8 hour shifts would yield $240 (assuming $10 per hour minimum wage and for the moment ignoring taxes which should not be that high for a minimum wage earner) for a net positive effect of $740 for working at Tim Horton's instead of playing in the tournament. Clearly for a rational out of town person the economic incentive of increased prizes is less than nil when compared to working at Tim Horton's.
Lowering entry fees would probably increase participation by Toronto area players since they don't have to deal with the extra expenses that an out of town player has to deal with. It probably follows a fairly simple demand curve as studied in Economics 101. Given the reality of fixed costs that increased participation would probably not be profitable enough to cover the decreased revenues from fees.
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I'm not paying myself at all to help organize this. Do you think I should be?
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