Occupy Toronto Protest

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Occupy Toronto Protest

Since the Occupiers like living in tents, let them occupy a rural prison camp for the next ten years.

That is very 1% of you.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Occupy Toronto Protest

As discussed elsewhere, any amorphous movement of note will attract bandstanders. Eco-warriors, conspiracy theorists, anarcho-syndicalists, Bible Christians and more. But those do not, in my observation as an outsider, represent OWS. Of course, it has not achieved a monolithic unity of purpose which is usually attained by a fixed hierarchy and decades of parading the troops. That looseness, to my mind, is part of the charm of OWS.

I see your secret decoder ring is working just fine.
It would seem you have a much deeper understanding of OWS than our friend Zeljko.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Occupy Toronto Protest

I see your secret decoder ring is working just fine.
It would seem you have a much deeper understanding of OWS than our friend (comrade) Zeljko.

If you don't mind an objective opinion, I think it's Jeljko who understands the situation better than you.

Have you ever watched the movie F.I.S.T. with Stallone starring? It was kind of a Godfather kind of movie for union members.

I went to a union meeting not long after the movied aired on TV. It was a ratification vote or something to do with the contract. I was sitting reading my newspaper and wating for the vote part while there was a steady stream of members at the microphone. Then I heard chanting and looked up. I was the only one sitting down that I could see. The others were all standing up chanting like in the movie. Must have been at least 400 people.

We didn't get the details of the offer before the meeting. No point having the membership talk it over with their spouses. The speakers telling people how the company gets the mine and they get the shaft wouldn't have the same effect.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Occupy Toronto Protest

I see your secret decoder ring is working just fine.
It would seem you have a much deeper understanding of OWS than our friend (comrade) Zeljko.

I would ask that you refrain from calling me comrade Zeljko. I've lost family members to communism and immigrated to the west with great personal difficulty. I don't find that brand of humor to be all that funny.

An understanding of OWS that's closer to your own does not mean it is deeper.

And if you or Jonathan want to see a state that's much closer to a Brave New World I suggest you read some of the history of communist states like Albania, Cambodia or North Korea. Animal Farm and 1984 were not inspired by western countries.

Here in the west you get a paper cut and then complain the system is unfair and mistreating you. Try living in country where they have much more serious problems sometime. Canada is far from being an exploitive or oppressive state.

So now you seem to agree that Jonathan and you have the right to decide who is part of 'the legitimate OWS' movement and who is not; in order to dismiss any of the OWS movement that doesn't match what you want it to be portrayed as. Amazing given that neither of you are part of the sharp end of the stick; or was your first step to make yourselves legitimate members of OWS. However, I applaud the audacity of your propoganda, if not the shallowness of your analysis.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Occupy Toronto Protest

If you don't mind an objective opinion, I think it's Jeljko who understands the situation better than you.

Actually, I think the real issue is that we are defining the OWS movement differently. I see the broader spectrum of supporters of OWS as the OWS movement. Whereas, Zeljko defines the movement as only those at the protest site. Fair enough. I think we both share the fear that the Marxist/Communist agenda may prevail. I am not really so worried, as the Communists have been marginalized almost everywhere. The Marxist propaganda do correctly identify some of the problems with Capitalism, however their solutions are too radical and will never see the light of day.

I have not seen the movie you mentioned. You seem to view everything through a "unions are bad" filter. I am sure unions have their dark side just as any organization can be manipulated and corrupted. They do serve as a counterbalance to corporate power.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Occupy Toronto Protest

I would ask that you refrain from calling me comrade Zeljko. I've lost family members to communism and immigrated to the west with great personal difficulty. I don't find that brand of humor to be all that funny.

Apologies, my post has been edited.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Occupy Toronto Protest

Actually, I think the real issue is that we are defining the OWS movement differently. I see the broader spectrum of supporters of OWS as the OWS movement. Whereas, Zeljko defines the movement as only those at the protest site. Fair enough. I think we both share the fear that the Marxist/Communist agenda may prevail. I am not really so worried, as the Communists have been marginalized almost everywhere. The Marxist propaganda do correctly identify some of the problems with Capitalism, however their solutions are too radical and will never see the light of day.

I have not seen the movie you mentioned. You seem to view everything through a "unions are bad" filter. I am sure unions have their dark side just as any organization can be manipulated and corrupted. They do serve as a counterbalance to corporate power.

Apology accepted. The broader spectrum of supporters did not create the OWS movement. The movement did not exist, not by name and not by deed, until those that went out to protest created the movement. All those by themselves who are now saying they are part of the broader spectrum did not create a movement in all the years they had the opportunity to do so. So yes I define the movement as being those who created it. It's very 1% of you not to acknowledge the efforts of the 99% in the park as being fundamental and primary. I would say that whether we were talking about the OWS movement now or the civil rights movement in the 1960's.

The general dissatisfaction with our economic system and government etc. has always existed, since pre-Confederation in Canada and since pre-Independence in the USA. It was not a movement, it was how things work in a democracy.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Occupy Toronto Protest

Here in the west you get a paper cut and then complain the system is unfair and mistreating you. Try living in country where they have much more serious problems sometime. Canada is far from being an exploitive or oppressive state.

There are many places in the world that are far worst off than Canada. And as I have stated many times, the core complaints of OWS are the most acute in the USA. But what happens in the USA tends to infect the world.

Should we wait until things are far worse, or should we act now? Saying it is worse elsewhere is no reason not to take corrective action. Duh...

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Occupy Toronto Protest

There are many places in the world that are far worst off than Canada. And as I have stated many times, the core complaints of OWS are the most acute in the USA. But what happens in the USA tends to infect the world.

Should we wait until things are far worse, or should we act now? Saying it is worse elsewhere is no reason not to take corrective action. Duh...

You are underestimating the rest of the world, they are not just a pitre dish for America. If so can you explain how Canadian banks were not infected by what happened in 2008.

There is a broad range of corrective action and how it can be taken. This type of protest movement and the suggestions coming out of it are not the only way to take corrective action or in my opinion the best way. At the very least there is a great deal of exaggeration and hyperbole that does not have a foundation in fact coming out of the OWS movement. Stereotypes of lazy government workers or union members, greedy bankers and lawyers and the like are not particularly helpful.

I've seen exactly this kind of thinking that if someone has more than me I hate them time and time again and I don't find it helpful to society. Not when I experienced it from welfare clients directed at their caseworkers, not when I saw union members begrudge enhancements to junior members that the senior members did not receive when they were junior and not when I was labelled as part of the civil service as being vastly overpaid and underworked by the general public.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Occupy Toronto Protest

You are underestimating the rest of the world, they are not just a pitre dish for America. If so can you explain how Canadian banks were not infected by what happened in 2008.

My criticism of the banks has always been limited to the "too big to fail" banks on wall street. The US political system recklessly dismantled their regulatory systems and let the banks do whatever they wanted. Chaos was the result.

In Canada, we did not allow the banks to merge. We kept our regulatory systems in place, and actually did some regulating. No chaos.

In fact, Bank of Canada governor Mark Carney is a leading advocate for international bank regulations.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Occupy Toronto Protest

My criticism of the banks has always been limited to the "too big to fail" banks on wall street. The US political system recklessly dismantled their regulatory systems and let the banks do whatever they wanted. Chaos was the result.

In Canada, we did not allow the banks to merge. We kept our regulatory systems in place, and actual did some regulating. No chaos.

Completely agree with you on this point. However, I don't think the OWS Toronto variation or the G20 protestors who smashed windows in downtown Toronto would agree with either of us on this. To them a bank is a bank and none of them are anything but evil. Unless of course it says credit union on the door.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Occupy Toronto Protest

In Canada, we did not allow the banks to merge. We kept our regulatory systems in place, and actually did some regulating. No chaos.

In fact, Bank of Canada governor Mark Carney is a leading advocate for international bank regulations.

Here's a newspaper article from the time as memories tend to dim.

Click Here...

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Occupy Toronto Protest

Reports are that the tents are coming down peacefully.
The court order is being respected, no police action necessary.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Occupy Toronto Protest

Hi Bob:

I think the reports are a tad optimistic. I just listened a minute ago on the news to a protester chained to his tent. I think there are some protesters still intending civil disobedience - hopefully peaceful, non-violent. I hope the police also act non-violently.

Bob

[Ed Seedhouse]

Re: Occupy Toronto Protest

Hmmm, red the colour of communism.

And of the Republican party...