FIDE level chess in Canada

[Roger Patterson]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Hi Jean:

In the past I've promoted the " Level Playing Field " prize distribution.

Each section pools its own entry fees. Each section pays a percentage of all tournament expenses, so that all are covered. The balance of fees left in the section are the prize fund.

The section with the most players gets the biggest prize fund!

Any problem with this?

Bob A

no doubt Jean confused you when he used the most successful weekend tournament in Canada as an example of how things should not be done....

[Jean Hébert]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Hi Jean:

In the past I've promoted the " Level Playing Field " prize distribution.

Each section pools its own entry fees. Each section pays a percentage of all tournament expenses, so that all are covered. The balance of fees left in the section are the prize fund.

The section with the most players gets the biggest prize fund!

Any problem with this?

Bob A

Forget it. Just stating it is a terrible thing, let alone applied consistently. There is only one fair way to distribute prizes in chess tournaments : according to chess merits. Nobody should complain about the money distributed in an Open section. The prizes are available to anyone good enough to earn them. Nobody should complain about the prizes given in a top restricted section. If one feels that his money is badly spent entering such an event, he can spend it elsewhere or he can work to become good enough to enter such a restricted top section. Class sections should exist mainly if not exclusively to provide a more balanced competition, not to give away money to less deserving players.
Why do you insist on literally staging wars against our top players and marginalising them in every which way possible ? Your line of thinking would spell the end for the few top players that we still have, and the best guarantee for a continued decline for chess in this country which would hurt everyone, from top to bottom.
I am sorry to say that it is extremely disappointed to hear such a simplistic and thoughtless scheme from someone who has been involved in chess for so long. It seems that all these years have been wasted if all they could produce is such nonsense.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Easy enough. For more than 20 years the "Championnat ouvert de la Mauricie" has had 5 or 6 sections with about equal prizes in every one of them. The best formula to figure out who is paying for whom. Almost every year there are more players (sometimes twice as much!) in the top section than in the under 2000 section. Who is subsidizing whom here ? Clearly the top section is more self sufficient than one and generally more than one lower section. And this happens year after year. It is not about "generosity", it is about ill-conceived formulas that many players of all levels find senseless.

Hi Jean:

In the past I've promoted the " Level Playing Field " prize distribution.

Each section pools its own entry fees. Each section pays a percentage of all tournament expenses, so that all are covered. The balance of fees left in the section are the prize fund.

The section with the most players gets the biggest prize fund!

Any problem with this?

Bob A

[Denton Cockburn]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

It is necessary to organize a Swiss with many rounds and at the end get almost RR and pay only Swiss fees :D
10 players -> 22$ in swiss

The problem is they require it to be RR to get the "everyone gets rated" bonus.
In a Swiss, only games against currently rated players count, and since there are likely to be less than 9 rounds, or even if 9, less than that against FIDE rated opposition, you can't guarantee a FIDE rating after.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Swiss tournaments are actually pretty cheap, with just a $2.20 FIDE rating fee (if I remember correctly).

A round-robin is expensive ($100 FIDE rating fee, covering all players), and is best 9 rounds (guaranteeing a FIDE rating for everyone after), so 10 players. At least this can be done with none previously rated.

It is necessary to organize a Swiss with many rounds and at the end get almost RR and pay only Swiss fees :D
10 players -> 22$ in swiss

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Factually false from beginning to end.

As to the "most valuable" contribution of those strong players, I don't particularly care for the hero worship thing personally. You overstate their importance and contribution and denigrate those you consider beneath you.

My own personal experiences with a pair of supposed "hero" Canadian players (international titles) at a couple of events I organized in the mid-2000s basically turned me off wanting to be an event organizer at all, so I went with just being an arbiter at events others organized.

I don't think either of those players plays anymore either but I don't personally miss their "contributions" ...

[Jean Hébert]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Factually false from beginning to end. As to the "most valuable" contribution of those strong players, I don't particularly care for the hero worship thing personally. You overstate their importance and contribution and denigrate those you consider beneath you.

You should think twice before writing such garbage on a message board. It is not because we see things from different perspectives that my facts or your facts (which ones by the way ?) are "false from beginning to end".
It is not denigrating anybody to state, for example,the obvious that Garri Kasparov's contribution to chess stands well above Roger Patterson's or mine. Your "hero worship" theory simply uncovers jealousy and pettiness. It is simply unbearable for many to feel mediocre in just about every endeavours in their lives. They hate anything that ressembles excellence and call it "hero worship" or such.

[Jean Hébert]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

They may exist, but can you name me one tournament where the top section is self sufficient?

Easy enough. For more than 20 years the "Championnat ouvert de la Mauricie" has had 5 or 6 sections with about equal prizes in every one of them. The best formula to figure out who is paying for whom. Almost every year there are more players (sometimes twice as much!) in the top section than in the under 2000 section. Who is subsidizing whom here ? Clearly the top section is more self sufficient than one and generally more than one lower section. And this happens year after year. It is not about "generosity", it is about ill-conceived formulas that many players of all levels find senseless.

[Roger Patterson]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

... He simply pays for what he gets and in most cases, only a very small portion (if any) of his financial input, ends up padding up a little bit the top prizes of a given tournament......... In many cases the top section of a weekender is one of the most self sufficient of all, with very little "generosity" coming from lower sections. .......

Factually false from beginning to end.

As to the "most valuable" contribution of those strong players, I don't particularly care for the hero worship thing personally. You overstate their importance and contribution and denigrate those you consider beneath you.

[Denton Cockburn]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

I believe you are misinformed here. Take for example, the Hamilton Summer Open 2011.
Top Guns section - Entry fees collected $ 530, Prize fund $ 750.

I think in the majority of weekenders, it is the class sections who pay the lions share of the costs, and the top sections who receive the lions share of the prizes. Most players consider that reasonable and are okay with it. I do believe in class sections prizes. Everyone should have a chance to win something. Myself, I am happy enough fighting for a trophy.

Take for example the ProAm tournaments in Guelph. Top section entry is $60, with $55 returned in cash prizes. Class sections pay $40 and compete for trophies, no cash prizes at all. It is clear here who is covering the tournament expenses.

They may exist, but can you name me one tournament where the top section is self sufficient?

I agree with you that it's usually the lower sections that subsidize the upper sections.

I do agree with Jean though that losing a 2400 player is a bigger blow than losing a 1600 (because there are more 1600s and 2400 require a special sauce to create).

Personally, I'd love to see us do everything we can to get more 1600s into the game, so they can continue to subsidize prize pools for 2500s, so that I can get destroyed by them and learn from it.

As you alluded to as well (where you said most were OK with the subsidizing), I would pay $10 just to watch a 2500 analyze a game with a 2400. I think I'd gain points by osmosis.

Denton

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

In many cases the top section of a weekender is one of the most self sufficient of all, with very little "generosity" coming from lower sections.

I believe you are misinformed here. Take for example, the Hamilton Summer Open 2011.
Top Guns section - Entry fees collected $ 530, Prize fund $ 750.

I think in the majority of weekenders, it is the class sections who pay the lions share of the costs, and the top sections who receive the lions share of the prizes. Most players consider that reasonable and are okay with it. I do believe in class sections prizes. Everyone should have a chance to win something. Myself, I am happy enough fighting for a trophy.

Take for example the ProAm tournaments in Guelph. Top section entry is $60, with $55 returned in cash prizes. Class sections pay $40 and compete for trophies, no cash prizes at all. It is clear here who is covering the tournament expenses.

They may exist, but can you name me one tournament where the top section is self sufficient?

[Denton Cockburn]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

What are the requirements to have a tournament (even a small 8-player RR for example) rated by FIDE? How many of the players have to have an existing FIDE rating? I cannot imagine 8 players could get together all with no existing FIDE rating... that means you have to convince some players with existing ratings to participate.

You pretty much need 2/3 of the players to already be FIDE rated in a Swiss, preferably more.

Swiss tournaments are actually pretty cheap, with just a $2.20 FIDE rating fee (if I remember correctly).

A round-robin is expensive ($100 FIDE rating fee, covering all players), and is best 9 rounds (guaranteeing a FIDE rating for everyone after), so 10 players. At least this can be done with none previously rated.

The additional problem from where I am is to then convince each of those players to also pay the CFC their cut ($54 protection money to ensure that the results can reach the FIDE website).

[Kerry Liles]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

My suggestions: contact local chess players and you may find 5-7 interested to play. chess.ca provides names who are CFC members (less hassle with fees) http://www.chess.ca/players?player_search_prov=QC

What are the requirements to have a tournament (even a small 8-player RR for example) rated by FIDE? How many of the players have to have an existing FIDE rating? I cannot imagine 8 players could get together all with no existing FIDE rating... that means you have to convince some players with existing ratings to participate.

[Jean Hébert]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Without the financial support of the amateur chess player, there would be no organized chess in Canada. That is the reality we all need to acknowledge.

ps. I find "for you there is little beyond the figures" offensive. Just because I point out the realities of chess finances, does not mean I don't appreciate other aspects of the game. The excitement of the tournament, the spirit of competition, greeting old friends, a well fought game, a beautiful combination or a clever chess puzzle. They all make up the fabric of chess, and it draws us all to the game. I am especially enjoying teaching the beginners. The excitement in their eyes when they see a smothered mate for the first time. Priceless.

If we want to keep the chess community robust, we must never again neglect the financial realities of chess in Canada. Expenses and prize funds need to be paid, and it is the amateur player who generously funds it all. It would be great to see our elite players compete more and be better compensated, but for that to happen we must expand the player base. Every amateur player who pays his membership dues and entry fees helps to grow the chess community. They are all precious, every one. It is not about the money, it is about the growth and health of the chess community.

Nobody denies the value of the average player which, by the way, hardly "funds it all generously". He simply pays for what he gets and in most cases, only a very small portion (if any) of his financial input, ends up padding up a little bit the top prizes of a given tournament. Most of his money goes to pay the site (mainly benefitting the numerous class players), arbiters (mainly for class players), publicity (aimed mostly at class players) and class prizes, which in some cases come partly from other more numerous sections! There is absolutely no generosity involved here, and none is expected. In many cases the top section of a weekender is one of the most self sufficient of all, with very little "generosity" coming from lower sections. You for obvious reasons identify with the average player (which in itself is OK) and calling yourself "generous" is understandably a good feeling which unfortunately cannot survive even a quick scrutiny.
In any cases the average player's contribution to the chess world is one sided and can easily be measured in dollar and cents. But you fail to understand that losing a Lesiège, a Bluvshtein or a Kovalyov is a far more serious loss then losing a guy whose main contribution is to pay his dues. No dues can make up for the kind of loss suffered when a top player disappears from chess(even if that does not prevent amateur X to enjoy what he thinks is a beautiful combination ).

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

That is exactly what I said. Their value for you is essentially financial... and for you there is little beyond the figures...

Without the financial support of the amateur chess player, there would be no organized chess in Canada. That is the reality we all need to acknowledge.

ps. I find "for you there is little beyond the figures" offensive. Just because I point out the realities of chess finances, does not mean I don't appreciate other aspects of the game. The excitement of the tournament, the spirit of competition, greeting old friends, a well fought game, a beautiful combination or a clever chess puzzle. They all make up the fabric of chess, and it draws us all to the game. I am especially enjoying teaching the beginners. The excitement in their eyes when they see a smothered mate for the first time. Priceless.

If we want to keep the chess community robust, we must never again neglect the financial realities of chess in Canada. Expenses and prize funds need to be paid, and it is the amateur player who generously funds it all. It would be great to see our elite players compete more and be better compensated, but for that to happen we must expand the player base. Every amateur player who pays his membership dues and entry fees helps to grow the chess community. They are all precious, every one. It is not about the money, it is about the growth and health of the chess community.