FIDE level chess in Canada

[John Brown]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Hi Jean:

In the past I've promoted the " Level Playing Field " prize distribution.

Each section pools its own entry fees. Each section pays a percentage of all tournament expenses, so that all are covered. The balance of fees left in the section are the prize fund.

The section with the most players gets the biggest prize fund!

Any problem with this?

Bob A

HI Bob;
I have to disagree with you here. I think the Elite or Open sections deserve bigger prizes and nothing less than $1000 for First should be expected.
What I do feel is that if any section is paying the same amount of entry fee then they too should expect a big prize. The norm right now is to charge the same entry fee and give out less per section. If you want more participation from the lower ranks then you have to reduce their entry fees so more will come out but give back at least 5-10 times of the entry back as prizes. So if you charge $100 to enter the Open then $1000 is First. $70 in U2000 then $700 is First $50 in U1600 then $500 for First. That only takes 10 players per group to pay out Prizes the rest will be divided as per other prizes, rent, TD fees etc. The norm now wants the lower players to pay high fees but not get a reasonable return to bring out more players. I'd think 10 times your entry is more than enough to bring out more players. Most lower class players usually have more family members so a cheaper entry fee should in theory bring out more players.

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

My gosh man either improve your English or give Mohawk College back their diploma (assuming you completed it). There are foreign exchange students in France here that are not native English speakers that could be your English professors. Actually there are also French students here studying in English that have never lived in an English speaking country, that could also school you in English.

Speaking of laughs the next time I see the other 4 guys I'll be sure to let them know what you think of the program we ran. We'll be laughing at your ignorance I'm sure.

FYI there's really no point in arguing with him. Every forum has one or two like him. Most places would just delete the garbage posts or possibly even start banning people for a week as a warning.

[Mikhail Egorov]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

My gosh man either improve your English or give Mohawk College back their diploma (assuming you completed it). There are foreign exchange students in France here that are not native English speakers that could be your English professors. Actually there are also French students here studying in English that have never lived in an English speaking country, that could also school you in English.

Speaking of laughs the next time I see the other 4 guys I'll be sure to let them know what you think of the program we ran. We'll be laughing at your ignorance I'm sure.

I would recommend you learn to respect your elders. Maybe someone will listen to you until, if you new what you were taking about. There are people who think they know staff and there are people who actually know staff. You obviously think you know it all. :D

What is next you are going to teach GM how to play good chess? Geez, that will be a laugh for us all!

[Mikhail Egorov]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

When will you release all games?

I don't like the tone of voice you using here. :D

Isn't it your job to take pictures? ;)

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

I would recommend you learn to respect your elders. Maybe someone will listen to you until, if you new what you were taking about. There are people who think they know staff and there are people who actually know staff. You obviously think you know it all. :D

What is next you are going to teach GM how to play good chess? Geez, that will be a laugh for us all!

Firstly you mean stuff not staff, knew not new.

Secondly, what I know is how the YMCA program ran and how it ended and that is was a YMCA program not a Hamilton chess club program. I was involved with it. You were not. I know the hard work and effort put in by our group of 5 and the fun the junors had. So I'm not impressed when a hot head such as yourself starts insulting the program years later just to get his kicks. I would recommend you learn to respect others no matter what their age. I guess you are so outraged by the argument between myself and Pushke that you have finally decided to bring it up 10 years later?

Thirdly you are the one going around with your 2100 rating taking money from people and passing yourself off as qualified to make a GM out of someone. Not me. Maybe that's why you feel you have to attack other strong players higher rated than yourself. To cover up for your own inadequacies. Personally I would never try to individually coach someone for money unless I was master level myself and preferably with at least some kind of title.

I also know that the Hamilton club is very small compared to what it was in the 1970s. That statement by me is what seems to have set you off on this latest attack against someone, namely me. Get over it. The club is miniscule compared to what it was. I'm glad it's hanging on and having some success with it's junior program thanks to Garvin. It will have to grow quite a bit to match the junior checker scene in Hamilton http://www.thespec.com/videozone/683329

[Mikhail Egorov]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Firstly you mean stuff not staff, knew not new.

Secondly, what I know is how the YMCA program ran and how it ended and that is was a YMCA program not a Hamilton chess club program. I was involved with it. You were not. I know the hard work and effort put in by our group of 5 and the fun the junors had. So I'm not impressed when a hot head such as yourself starts insulting the program years later just to get his kicks. I would recommend you learn to respect others no matter what their age. I guess you are so outraged by the argument between myself and Pushke that you have finally decided to bring it up 10 years later?

Thirdly you are the one going around with your 2100 rating taking money from people and passing yourself off as qualified to make a GM out of someone. Not me. Maybe that's why you feel you have to attack other strong players higher rated than yourself. To cover up for your own inadequacies. Personally I would never try to individually coach someone for money unless I was master level myself and preferably with at least some kind of title.

I also know that the Hamilton club is very small compared to what it was in the 1970s. That statement by me is what seems to have set you off on this latest attack against someone, namely me. Get over it. The club is miniscule compared to what it was. I'm glad it's hanging on and having some success with it's junior program thanks to Garvin. It will have to grow quite a bit to match the junior checker scene in Hamilton http://www.thespec.com/videozone/683329

Go to bed Kitich, get some sleep and start doing something usefull for a change instead of typing countless nonsense messages lol. Time to get over your anger against other people you gathered over decades and get a life dude!!! ;)

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Go to bed Kitich, get some sleep and start doing something usefull for a change instead of typing countless nonsense messages lol. Time to get over your anger against other people you gathered over decades and get a life dude!!! ;)

Do you seriously not realize I'm in a different time zone than you are? I did mention at least once that I'm in France. It's time to wake up over here. You are the one staying up until the small hours spouting a lot of hate and nonsense bringing up an argument that happened a decade ago and a YMCA program that ended 7 years ago. An argument that I had long forgotten about. It will be interesting to see who you attack next. Will it be Plotkin or Noritsyn again next or me again or will you find someone new? My guess is that the next time you fear being shown to be inadequate to be a paid coach that you'll be off attacking someone again.

[Alex Ferreira]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Alex,

I'm interested in the comparison you're making with smallish European events. I mean ordinary chess events, not Wijk aan Zee or the London Classic.

You're mostly talking about the prize distribution, but the other point you raise is that in the European events you attended, everyone played together in one big section. In my experience, playing in Toronto, it seems that stronger players don't want to play against weaker players. (This is not just IMs and GMs - 1700s don't want to play with 1400s.)

But if stronger players insist on having weaker players segregated off in their own sections, is it any wonder if the weaker players then want their own prize fund? Conversely, many players (Bob Armstrong included) despite arguing for relatively level prize funds are quite happy to play against stronger players (by playing up a section) even though they then have almost no chance of winning money. (Indeed players are willing to pay extra for this privilege!)

So the two points go together, don't they? Europeans and North Americans are both willing to play with weaker players, and take the weaker players' money. And they're both willing to play with the "big boys" and lose money. But no one wants to play in a weak section and donate most of the money to a higher section, i.e., to players who refuse to play with them.

Marcus

Hi Marcus,

Some good points. Not sure to what extent the two things are so connected. I get the impression that top players are definitely willing to play anyone if it increases their chances of winning more money. People want to play their peers as opposed to someone much weaker, because they love the game, or because they don't want to lose a ton of rating points (say to underrated juniors for example). People play up because they want the challenge, and also to improve / protect their ratings. I've actually had several people tell me this okay.
As for European vs North American tournaments... I simply used a couple of examples on how people were perfectly fine with the format where nobody got prizes for being the best in a specific rating class, and the turn-outs were great, nobody seemed to complain about it, and people return year after year. The amateurs as well! I am not against sectioning off classes in tournaments, and people playing their own peers. I quite enjoy playing my peers perhaps more so than getting schooled by an IM or beat a beginner. It just surprises me how people expect to win monies from such events, though.

Alex F.

[Alex Ferreira]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Since you are a chess event organizer, Alex, I write this with the greatest of respect and I hope that at least a few of the points I will make here will not be in vain.

First of all, with respect to tournaments in Greece or any other European country: we have to recognize a fundamental difference in the culture that affects chess. In Europe, the population has time on their hands. Much, much more so than in North America. Greece is a prime example: most of the citizenry works for government and has very generous paid time off (which unfortunately for them, they are beginning to lose that now because they've been living on borrowed time and other people's money, and Greece is but the first flashpoint in a massive change called "austerity" coming to Europe).

So what does that mean for chess events? It means the people there up to now have been able to afford a much more relaxed lifestyle, and so time spent playing or even watching chess has been much more available. It affects the mentality. People will spend money to enter a chess event even if they can't win that money back, because they have time to kill and so do many other people, so that chess events become SOCIAL events. In North America, for the most part chess events are NOT PRIMARILY social events. Time is more precious here, free time is much less available, and chess takes up valuable time. So Alex, if I may suggest, don't waste effort trying to equate chess events in North America to chess events in Europe. The differences cannot be erased. In fact, with austerity coming, the reverse change will be happening. Chess events in Europe will end up becoming more like chess events in North America. It is sad, but the likes of Jean Hebert will continue to wear blinders and believe that European chess standards can be imported into North America. Everything Jean posts here about the sad state of chess in Canada merely showcases his complete lack of understanding. Notice I'm not saying he is wrong as to the problems, I'm saying that he doesn't understand the forces behind the problems and why they simply can't be overcome.

There are only so many people (in North America) who will be playing chess for purely love of the game. That number of people will continue to remain very very low for the forseeable future. Thus Alex, as an organizer you are not going to grow your events (or anyone else's) by believing that you can in any way attract more and more people with such a philosophy. You can't make people love chess (in its present form). Most people don't love chess in its present form and never will.

I can help you understand why weak chess players would expect to make money in chess, and I can explain it with one word: poker. There are plenty of weak poker players making money in poker, because poker doesn't rely on pure skill. Poker allows luck to determine results. If chess did the same, it would have the same financial success as poker. Since chess allows no luck in determining results, chess has the opposite financial result as poker: a shrinking base of the pyramind as players at the base realize they have no hope of advancing and also realize that the game takes inordinate amounts of their precious non-European time. The base is shrinking more and more as the requirement for opening theory knowledge plays a greater and greater part in chess results.

To counteract this, it becomes necessary in North American tourament chess to offer class prizes to keep the base interested. If you continue just taking money from the base and handing it to the elite, you will shrink organized chess in North America, guaranteed. So yes, Alex, you are correct to say the weak should not expect to ever make money in chess, as long as you are willing to also see organized chess decline. It's the simple reality.

I and some other people are working to bring some change to the North American chess scene. What we are planning is quite dramatic, and it will take time to put in motion. The year 2013, assuming we survive the Mayan calendar, the European collapse, and war with Iran, promises to be the most exciting in modern chess history, and not just for North America either. To all those anguishing about the sorry state of affairs for chess players in North America, I can only say, be patient, help is coming. Rome wasn't built in a day.

For chess players who want to prepare for what is coming: stop studying chess openings, your best money opportunities will not lie with playing standard chess games. Instead, study chess tactics. The wilder and crazier the tactics, the better.

Of course, if you love a good long strategic game of standard chess and don't mind paying money to the elite and spending your weekends in long chess battles, you have my blessing and I hope organizers like Alex will continue to provide you the opportunities to play the game you love.

Paul,


You put forward some different points and perspectives, but forgive me for not responding to all the arguments in your post.
As I stated very clearly, I was writing as a chess player. Not as an organizer.

When I helped organize, I think I understood the community well enough to know that my ideas as a player may be somewhat utopian or unique. They sometimes correspond to the majority of the community's, other times they don't. My guess is that any organizer out there will try to push for some ideas but also compromise with the demands of the community he/she is dealing with.

I like your poker example, it clearly illustrates why weak players think they have a shot at winning money. They sometimes do! A relatively weaker poker player can win a big open tournament with some luck. This is a lot less likely in chess. Maybe this is why poker is more popular, who knows :D
I am rather ignorant when it comes to poker, but it seems to me that anyone can enter any tournament, and it's nearly impossible to determine the level of a playing field at the start of each tournament. So in that sense, there may not be classes / sections like in chess.

Tournament chess doesn't seem to be on the decline, or at least I haven't seen any compelling evidence that such is the case in the past decade while I've been active in it.


Alex F.

[Mikhail Egorov]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Do you seriously not realize I'm in a different time zone than you are? I did mention at least once that I'm in France. It's time to wake up over here. You are the one staying up until the small hours spouting a lot of hate and nonsense bringing up an argument that happened a decade ago and a YMCA program that ended 7 years ago. An argument that I had long forgotten about. It will be interesting to see who you attack next. Will it be Plotkin or Noritsyn again next or me again or will you find someone new? My guess is that the next time you fear being shown to be inadequate to be a paid coach that you'll be off attacking someone again.

Yes, it is called insult everyone on chesstalk zone lol. :D

There's really no point in arguing with you. You just insult everyone and everything. Every forum has insulter like you, who keep posts garbage and keep insulting others. In your case you also doing outside of the forum. ;)

How is your MBA program going. Did you finish it yet? How long did it take you. 10 years? Did you get a job?

I guess not, since you post here 24/7 and insult others. :D

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Yes, it is called insult everyone on chesstalk zone lol. :D

There's really no point in arguing with you. You just insult everyone and everything. Every forum has insulter like you, who keep posts garbage and keep insulting others. In your case you also doing outside of the forum. ;)

How is your MBA program going. Did you finish it yet? How long did it take you. 10 years? Did you get a job?

I guess not, since you post here 24/7 and insult others. :D

Really now you are going to taunt me because I put my education on hold to look after my father for years while I worked full time? Instead of putting him in a nursing home. Is there no limit to how ignorant and insulting you will get? You really are a tough guy ain't ya? During that time I also was able to find time to volunteer with Marco, Rodney, Oscar and Kyle with the YMCA program. According to you though we were all wasting our time. However, now I'm also being attacked by you because I didn't have sufficient time to carry the whole program myself when no one else was willing to step up to the plate.

Despite your insinuations I never talk to people behind their back. I tell them exactly how I feel either in person or on Chesstalk. You for example are an ignorant, boorish, lying, vulgar, insulting punk with zero people skills. But in no way should you feel that I'm attacking you by saying so, to borrow your standard line.

For someone who was not able to graduate from Mohawk college, has never been able to hold down a job and has always been finanically supported by his mother I would think twice before attacking the job record of someone who has almost as many years of work experience as you have been alive.

To answer your other question, yes completing my education in France has been a terrific experience. In today's area of laptops I can always find a minute or two to address insults coming from you though.

[Alan Baljeu]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Mikhail, Zeljko, you're off topic. Please stop so I can find the real conversation.

[Marcus Wilker]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Mikhail, Zeljko, you're off topic. Please stop so I can find the real conversation.

I just found a useful tool in my Control Panel ("User CP">"Settings and Options">"Edit ignore list"). I found when I add some names to this list (and I can always remove them, later) it makes the thread easier to follow :p

[Mikhail Egorov]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Really now you are going to taunt me because I put my education on hold to look after my father for years while I worked full time? Instead of putting him in a nursing home. Is there no limit to how ignorant and insulting you will get? You really are a tough guy ain't ya? During that time I also was able to find time to volunteer with Marco, Rodney, Oscar and Kyle with the YMCA program. According to you though we were all wasting our time. However, now I'm also being attacked by you because I didn't have sufficient time to carry the whole program myself when no one else was willing to step up to the plate.

Despite your insinuations I never talk to people behind their back. I tell them exactly how I feel either in person or on Chesstalk. You for example are an ignorant, boorish, lying, vulgar, insulting punk with zero people skills. But in no way should you feel that I'm attacking you by saying so, to borrow your standard line.

For someone who was not able to graduate from Mohawk college, has never been able to hold down a job and has always been finanically supported by his mother I would think twice before attacking the job record of someone who has almost as many years of work experience as you have been alive.

To answer your other question, yes completing my education in France has been a terrific experience. In today's area of laptops I can always find a minute or two to address insults coming from you though.

Yes, Kitich, you are off topic and you the one started it, by hijacking this thread. Marcus, Alan, myself and everyone here can't see that you are making any sense with your statements. Please stop, so others can find real conversation here. Please be respectful to others and especially elders. :p

You also hijacking other important thread, such as 'Why did the CFC and FQE relationship fall apart?'. Please stop it!

If you would like to continue making clown of yourself, and talk about how you enjoy insulting others and especially putting down elderly, please start your own thread and someone might join to discuss it with you your wrong doing. :D

[Kerry Liles]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

I just found a useful tool in my Control Panel ("User CP">"Settings and Options">"Edit ignore list"). I found when I add some names to this list (and I can always remove them, later) it makes the thread easier to follow :p

Thanks for pointing out that important technique...

I just hope it doesn't reach the point where it would be easier and quicker to have instead a list of poster to read (a not-ignore list)