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Everything in the laws of chess involves a tournament or some kind of a competition anyway. Things like not disturbing your opponent which are in the laws of chess, are just as much a part of a tournaments as pre-arranging a result.
Plus it is unclear if that means the actual game (ie the moves) has to be pre-arranged or if it also applies where only the result is pre-arranged but not the actual game.
The other problem is the word "clear" - this can have different meanings to different arbiters. Has this rule ever been applied in a case without ironclad proof (such as a recording of the agreement etc)?
The other problem is the word "clear" - this can have different meanings to different arbiters. Has this rule ever been applied in a case without ironclad proof (such as a recording of the agreement etc)?
I read several Geurt Gijssen articles >> grey matter.
Handbook :: C. General Rules and Recommendations for Tournaments
06. FIDE Tournament Rules
8. Play
(f) Where it is clear games have been pre-arranged, the CA shall impose suitable penalties.
It is rather sad that FIDE or any chess organisation who is supposedly dealing with a thinking game for minimally intelligent people feel the need to specify the obvious. It absolutely goes without saying that any sport/competition cannot accept or tolerate pre-arranged results. This is CHEATING! But apparently every sport and competitive activity have their Gary Rubens in needs of precise laws and rules to know what to do or not to do.
Handbook :: C. General Rules and Recommendations for Tournaments
06. FIDE Tournament Rules
8. Play
(f) Where it is clear games have been pre-arranged, the CA shall impose suitable penalties.
It is rather sad that FIDE or any chess organisation who is supposedly dealing with a thinking game for minimally intelligent people feel the need to specify the obvious. It absolutely goes without saying that any sport/competition cannot accept or tolerate pre-arranged results. This is CHEATING! But apparently every sport and competitive activity have their Gary Rubens in needs of precise laws and rules to know what to do or not to do.
It would indeed appear to be obvious to me that pre-arranging is teaching, but the high rated player who I had discussion with on that topic was also very convinced that in chess pre-arranging a draw result is normal, because the game of chess can end in a draw at any time. Thus, it doesn't matter whether it is arranged before or after the game. As such, I feel that a clear rule on this subject should exist.
Has this rule ever been applied in a case without ironclad proof (such as a recording of the agreement etc)?
Of course it has! And generally with circumstancial evidence rather than "ironclad proof" which is simply an unrealistic expectation. Do your own research. You are an arbiter, aren't you ?
Whenever, for example, two players come up at lightspeed with a well-known variation leading to a simplified position and a quick draw in a few minutes, in a situation where one player has good reason not to agree to a draw without a fight, there is already ample evidence to act upon for an arbiter with enough guts (and support from the organizer). Waiting for "ironclad proof" is the same as having no rule at all.
It would indeed appear to be obvious to me that pre-arranging is teaching, but the high rated player who I had discussion with on that topic was also very convinced that in chess pre-arranging a draw result is normal, because the game of chess can end in a draw at any time. Thus, it doesn't matter whether it is arranged before or after the game. As such, I feel that a clear rule on this subject should exist.
You must mean "cheating" instead of "teaching", don't you ? ;) But what kind of "clearer rule" do you need after all that has been said ? Are you going to let "high rated players" talk you into anything because of their "high" ratings ?
Many high rated players have come to believe that some things are legal only because many arbiters in need of ever "clearer rules" keep their mouth shut and their eyes closed.
Re: Re : Re: Re : Jean Hebert v Sambuev (not the game)
So we need a "no draws before 30 moves and 60 minutes have passed" rule? :)
The question really boils down to: Is circumstantial evidence "clear" enough? I assume the only effective penalty here is double-forfeiture of the game (and thus any prizes that may have been obtained) - possibly expulsion if it wasn't the last round although you don't hear about earlier ones very often.
the text in the GL was not fully adopted http://chess.ca/sites/default/files/07-08gl3.pdf . The following part is in force : unsportsmanlike conduct agreeing to a draw before a serious contest has begun. The Players' Code of Condict is also in force and it forbid prearranged result.
The Tournament Rules were in the Handbook before the motion to enact new Tournament Rules. They should be easily accessible to all arbiters.
So we need a "no draws before 30 moves and 60 minutes have passed" rule? :)
In my opinion the rules are fine as they are. Making them too precise only helps cheating by providing guidelines on how to do it. What is needed is a way to make arbiters free from the pressure of the organizers and arbiters with the will to uphold the laws of chess, not just make pairings. Are you such an arbiter Christopher ? Yes or no will do. :)
In my opinion the rules are fine as they are. Making them too precise only helps cheating by providing guidelines on how to do it. What is needed is a way to make arbiters free from the pressure of the organizers and arbiters with the will to uphold the laws of chess, not just make pairings. Are you such an arbiter Christopher ? Yes or no will do. :)
All I can say is "we will see" - I have not Arbitered for three years and so I am very interested in hearing about and discussing what is currently happening in events, as I'm planning something for after Christmas and possibly for next summer. Not that you're likely to want to play in any of my events since you so hated the last one I was involved in ;)
My worst experience running an event was actually when I was both Chief Arbiter and Chief Organizer. It was very much a balancing act that I won't care to repeat!
What I would like to see (as was talked about recently in another thread) is for Arbiters to become a bit more proactive in the application of the rules - and perhaps rewriting the rules to encourage proactivity - rather than simply waiting for complaints to come in, and I intend to work towards that in my future events.
Originally posted by Laurentiu GrigorescuView Post
While important, this type of discussion should not happen NOW. During the Olympiad.
It is not productive.
Why not during an olympiad and why wouldn't that be productive NOW ? Is the olympiad some kind of holy event or sacred place ? I don't think so. The 2010 olympiad was the scene of the most outrageous and publicized case of organized cheating in chess history involving the french GM Feller, team captain Hauchard and accomplice "analyst" IM Marzolo. The French Federation, providing an example to follow for other federations did the tough thing : they immediately started procedures against their own people (first Feller was taken off the lineup for the last round) and eventually got them severely sanctionned and suspended. If there is murder in a church, police must get in regardless if the time is "good" or not.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there normally an appeals committee at tournaments? Over here it is usually made up of GMs. What does anyone think the chances are of an appeals committee likely holding up such a ruling against their fellow players?
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