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I totally understand that. It is certainly a factor.
But there's probably more to it. With all that talent in the U12, U14 and U16, we should be able to come up with a much stronger, or at least, more 'populated' U18.
Girls quit even sooner: 17 in U14G, only 7 in U16G, and no U18G at all.
I totally understand that. It is certainly a factor.
But there's probably more to it. With all that talent in the U12, U14 and U16, we should be able to come up with a much stronger, or at least, more 'populated' U18. Is it a lack of proper training? Weak competition? Kids play until they reach a very good level, but then there's nothing more to do or learn, so they quit?
I don't know. Anyways, maybe all these kids will make me eat my words and we'll have a very strong U18 in a few years.
The U18 is significantly weaker than the U16 even if you include all the players in Canada. Razvan Preotu, Jason Cao and Michael Song are all rated over 2400 and in the U18 only Richard Wang is above 2400. With three 2300's and 7 2200's the U16 has a grim looking line-up!
The U18 age group: http://chess.ca/players?player_searc...854d78fa969d34
At a certain age chess becomes a lower priority. I think we all expect players like Razvan to play their whole life, but for the average player the commitment becomes too much. The cost, the time, the studying etc. As for the U18 girls there are a few who still play, but with no competition why go?
I'll attempt to shed some light on some of the player's opinion on this. I haven't talked to any of the U18 players, but several of the U16 players simply shrugged their shoulders and said "well I guess that's one less 2200 we could have to play". I'm not too bothered by it, but what I don't like is that the U18 players were not notified that Sam Song was playing in their section (I'm assuming) until the day of, and the fact that other U16 players (eg. Yinshi Li who has the exact same rating as Sam Song) were not notified that this was possible, or was in fact happening at the CYCC. If this happens next year would all the players in the top 10 in their age group in Canada be allowed to play up a section? I think (as some others have expressed their desire for this to happen) that the CFC should give the organizers rules on what they want to happen, and if the organizers are disatified with something they can appeal it for that specific CYCC. It would save a headache for them and that way all the players would know what could or could not happen.
At a certain age chess becomes a lower priority. I think we all expect players like Razvan to play their whole life, but for the average player the commitment becomes too much. The cost, the time, the studying etc. As for the U18 girls there are a few who still play, but with no competition why go?
Well, I have another theory, which might be totally off base but I'll share anyways.
A kid will stick to an activity he likes as long as it provides a good mix of stimulation (or enjoyement) and challenge (fulfilling).
So... it seems that 2200-2400 is the best we can do in Canada. After that, chess is neither stimulating nor challenging enough. I can't believe we don't have more GMs when we have U12-14-16 sections filled with kids that post a solid 2100-2200 rating. And these kids also shine at the WYCC.
In a perfect world, where money isn't an issue, I'd hire a top international coach to come here and evaluate our methods and provide suggestions to get us to the next level.
I've been teaching chess in Canada for about 25 years. A few observations in no particular order:
1) Players without coaches nowadays are facing a huge uphill struggle. Back when I was a junior I knew of only one or two kids who got coaching. Now almost all the kids who can afford it get it. Because of that people who can't afford coaching (and trips to (inter)national events) are going to drop further and further behind. I expect very few blue-collar families to be able to afford this.
2) Back then it was pretty annoying to get information. No internet, no computers. You really needed to be motivated to get skilled. You got used to this early in the improvement curve.
3) You needed to hang out with other people who were also motivated. So you shared information. They became your friends. I still have friends from chess who are players, and some who are no longer players, from back when I was a teen.
4) Nowadays you seldom see people under 25 doing post-mortems. I have young students who literally never do them because they have me as a coach and they have a computer to do other analysis, despite my telling them repeatedly how important it is. So they lose out on some of number 3.
5) The socio-economic makeup of the families of the strongest players has changed a lot. More families of white-collar professionals. More two-parent families. People with good jobs, who believe in higher education, who think of chess in part as an educational aid and to add to a college application. My parents chose chess as an activity for me because I was a quiet loner and because it was cheap. There was no master plan as a part of succeeding in life.
Last edited by Tom O'Donnell; Saturday, 11th July, 2015, 07:53 AM.
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
I would add no «sports-études» support to the problem. The sports-études (literally, sport-studies) is a Quebec provincial program whose goal is to help athletes succeed at school. Because athletes pass so many hours training and because they miss so many days of school competing at home and abroad, special considerations must be given to them in order to ensure that they will graduate. Only one chess player has ever been granted access to this program. This was an exception because the program is restricted to sports Federations.
Sport-études is an elite program restricted to applicants which are recommended by their provincial Federation. No such program exist at the elementary level of education. Any student who failed to perform adequately at school will be expelled from the program. Actually, many of those athletes are better at school then the normal population.
Helping the players conciliate school and sport is very important to chess development. The wise kids will obviously choose school first if they are forced to make a choice.
In order to produce top players, we must invest top money. Programs such as Own The Podium has shown just how expensive it can be.
In order to produce top players, we must invest top money. Programs such as Own The Podium has shown just how expensive it can be.
In case you didn't notice, there are very few adult members remaining in the CFC.
What we need is two chess organizations with separate executives. One for adults and one for junior players. This should give the organizations more time to concentrate on the concerns and events of both age groups.
In case you didn't notice, there are very few adult members remaining in the CFC.
What we need is two chess organizations with separate executives. One for adults and one for junior players. This should give the organizations more time to concentrate on the concerns and events of both age groups.
But FIDE will recognize only one Federation, the adult one. The junior Federation access to FIDE titles and rating will be through the adult Federation. Apart from this shortcoming, I approve the idea of having some sort of separate minor chess association. In hockey and baseball, we have, at least in Quebec, separate minor hockey and minor baseball associations. Unless the minor chess association is affiliated to the CFC and the minor chess competitions are CFC rated, there is little hope that any such association will ever be recognized. The affiliation itself would require an amendment to the CFC Constitution but the Constitution is in need of major changes anyway.
In case you didn't notice, there are very few adult members remaining in the CFC.
What we need is two chess organizations with separate executives. One for adults and one for junior players. This should give the organizations more time to concentrate on the concerns and events of both age groups.
Of course you would also have to have two sets of volunteers to populate both organizations. The most likely source of new volunteers would be parents of chessplayers and possibly coaches though there can sometimes be issues with both. I have had some discussions about a separate children's chess organization which would be able to possibly obtain some close to charitable status but it would be starting from scratch which may not be such an easy assignment. I think you might jeopardize the charitable status if ties were too tight with the CFC and FIDE isn't into dealing with multiple organizations in each country.
Let's not forget that a national "junior chess organization" already exists and prospers, celebrating its 30th anniversary this year. It is the Canadian Chess 'n Math Association / l'Association Échecs et Maths, courtesy of which all of us are using ChessTalk. :)
Let's not forget that a national "junior chess organization" already exists and prospers, celebrating its 30th anniversary this year. It is the Canadian Chess 'n Math Association / l'Association Échecs et Maths, courtesy of which all of us are using ChessTalk. :)
Chess and Math would be good as the children's organization if they focused on serious chess for kids more. Scoresheets and long time controls. There is a time and place for quick chess and there is also a time and place for more serious chess. Chess and Math probably has a much broader appeal than the niche that we are targetting. For example, Chess and Math could probably hope to capture two or three thousand kids in the Windsor area if they were here but the CFC is probably looking at one hundred of them.
What I have in mind is more the CFC with two branches, each with different people in charge. Open events would still be open events. However, events for adults would be just that. One office staff for both.
The current situation doesn't seem like a great success. To put things in perspective, the adult membership of the CFC is posted at just over 800. The adult membership of the correspondence club when I was administering it was just under 700. I think there were around 20 juniors. Correspondence chess was always harder to recruit than over the board.
Kevin, your post reminds me that there has been an informal Canadian Senior Championship in Kitchener for the past few years. I use the term informal because as far as I know the CFC does not award this event through any approval process. I have never seen it discussed at a governors' meeting.
BC has submitted a proposal to hold the 2016 Canadian Senior Championship in Vancouver using the formal event proposal format. If it is approved at the AGM that would be a good first step in the direction you suggest. Recognizing that this is completely off topic, perhaps it is worthy of a separate thread.
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