Feel the Bern

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Feel the Bern

Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone magazine has written an article about Donald Trump.
Matt wrote some excellent stories about the financial collapse of 2008 and all the corruption and fraud surrounding Wall Street.
He has become one of my favourite authors. Here is a link to his article.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...pable-20160224

I am going to read it in full later today, but here is a excerpt that is just priceless.


President Donald Trump.

A thousand ridiculous accidents needed to happen in the unlikeliest of sequences for it to be possible, but absent a dramatic turn of events – an early primary catastrophe, Mike Bloomberg ego-crashing the race, etc. – this boorish, monosyllabic TV tyrant with the attention span of an Xbox-playing 11-year-old really is set to lay waste to the most impenetrable oligarchy the Western world ever devised.

It turns out we let our electoral process devolve into something so fake and dysfunctional that any half-bright con man with the stones to try it could walk right through the front door and tear it to shreds on the first go.

And Trump is no half-bright con man, either. He's way better than average.

[Ken MacDonald]

Re: Feel the Bern

Double Post

[Ken MacDonald]

Re: Feel the Bern

Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone magazine has written an article about Donald Trump.
Matt wrote some excellent stories about the financial collapse of 2008 and all the corruption and fraud surrounding Wall Street.
He has become one of my favourite authors. Here is a link to his article.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...pable-20160224

I am going to read it in full later today, but here is a excerpt that is just priceless.


President Donald Trump.

A thousand ridiculous accidents needed to happen in the unlikeliest of sequences for it to be possible, but absent a dramatic turn of events – an early primary catastrophe, Mike Bloomberg ego-crashing the race, etc. – this boorish, monosyllabic TV tyrant with the attention span of an Xbox-playing 11-year-old really is set to lay waste to the most impenetrable oligarchy the Western world ever devised.

It turns out we let our electoral process devolve into something so fake and dysfunctional that any half-bright con man with the stones to try it could walk right through the front door and tear it to shreds on the first go.

And Trump is no half-bright con man, either. He's way better than average.

Is that the same magazine of journalistic excellence that published the article "A Rape On Campus" in late 2014?

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Feel the Bern

A couple more entertaining quotes from the RS article:

Cruz certainly has an odd face – it looks like someone sewed pieces of a waterlogged Reagan mask together at gunpoint

In the age of Trump, the Cruzes of the world also have to be rebels against the "establishment." This requirement makes for some almost unbelievable rhetorical contortions."Government," Cruz now ventures, "should not be about redistributing wealth and benefiting the corporations and the special interests."

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Feel the Bern

And Trump is no half-bright con man, either. He's way better than average.

That sounds about right to me. He's a way better conman than Bernie Sanders, for example, who is at best average.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Feel the Bern

Is that the same magazine of journalistic excellence that published the article "A Rape On Campus" in late 2014?

I am not familiar with that article, nor Rolling Stone magazine except for the Matt Taibbi articles.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Feel the Bern

That sounds about right to me. He's a way better conman than Bernie Sanders, for example, who is at best average.

Well, I disagree with the label of conman for Bernie Sanders.

In longer interviews, Bernie will explain that he can't accomplish what he has promised unless he gets massive public support after the election. That's why he is asking for a political revolution. I fear many are not hearing that part of the message.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Feel the Bern

People want free stuff that they didn't work for and didn't earn. I get the message.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Feel the Bern

People want free stuff that they didn't work for and didn't earn. I get the message.

No Tom. With all due respect, you don't get the message.
You're not feeling the Bern!

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Feel the Bern

People want free stuff that they didn't work for and didn't earn. I get the message.

You get the message, but it seems you actually don't understand it. If you did, you'd understand that the words "work" and "earn" even in the U.S. capitalist economy are left wide open, to anyone's interpretation.

The message of Bernie Sanders, at least in part, is that there are already plenty of people getting stuff that they didn't work for or earn. Who would these people be? Sanders speaks a lot about millionaires and billionaires, but I would venture to guess he doesn't tar them all with the same brush. For example, Sanders might say that Bill Gates fully deserves his immense wealth for the work he did with Microsoft. The people that Sanders points to are Wall Street bankers and traders, who earn money on speculation and in doing so can cause great harm to the overall economy. And you should know that Donald Trump will, if elected President, target at least in his tax plan many of the same people. He has said that the "hedge fund people" are not going to like him.

So one question with Sanders becomes: is it worth giving students free university education in return for taking back some of the "disproportionate" wealth of Wall Street speculators? Much of that wealth is being parked in the Cayman Islands or other tax havens worldwide including real estate. Very little of it is being put back into the U.S. economy to generate jobs and businesses. Whereas allowing U.S. students to graduate with university degrees and have very little, if any, debt to pay back would immediately bring about a middle-class wealth effect that would, in Sanders' view, generate an explosion of economic activity that just isn't happening right now. And that isn't even to mention the benefits to science and research and engineering that could accrue within the U.S.

Looking at this through a puritanical lens isn't seeing the big picture. We already have violation of puritanical ethics on a large scale, doing damage to the economy and causing an increasing polarization that is decimating the middle class. How long that can continue is anyone's guess. What's interesting is that there are some members of the millionaire / billionaire class that are calling for higher taxes on themselves and their peers, recognizing that a readjustment seems almost necessary at this point.

Personally, I'll take Sanders over Rubio or Cruz any time. Between Sanders, Trump or Clinton, I think Clinton may be the safest choice, with Sanders still worth consideration.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Feel the Bern

You get the message, but it seems you actually don't understand it. If you did, you'd understand that the words "work" and "earn" even in the U.S. capitalist economy are left wide open, to anyone's interpretation.

The message of Bernie Sanders, at least in part, is that there are already plenty of people getting stuff that they didn't work for or earn. Who would these people be? Sanders speaks a lot about millionaires and billionaires, but I would venture to guess he doesn't tar them all with the same brush. For example, Sanders might say that Bill Gates fully deserves his immense wealth for the work he did with Microsoft. The people that Sanders points to are Wall Street bankers and traders, who earn money on speculation and in doing so can cause great harm to the overall economy. And you should know that Donald Trump will, if elected President, target at least in his tax plan many of the same people. He has said that the "hedge fund people" are not going to like him.

So one question with Sanders becomes: is it worth giving students free university education in return for taking back some of the "disproportionate" wealth of Wall Street speculators? Much of that wealth is being parked in the Cayman Islands or other tax havens worldwide including real estate. Very little of it is being put back into the U.S. economy to generate jobs and businesses. Whereas allowing U.S. students to graduate with university degrees and have very little, if any, debt to pay back would immediately bring about a middle-class wealth effect that would, in Sanders' view, generate an explosion of economic activity that just isn't happening right now. And that isn't even to mention the benefits to science and research and engineering that could accrue within the U.S.

Looking at this through a puritanical lens isn't seeing the big picture. We already have violation of puritanical ethics on a large scale, doing damage to the economy and causing an increasing polarization that is decimating the middle class. How long that can continue is anyone's guess. What's interesting is that there are some members of the millionaire / billionaire class that are calling for higher taxes on themselves and their peers, recognizing that a readjustment seems almost necessary at this point.

Personally, I'll take Sanders over Rubio or Cruz any time. Between Sanders, Trump or Clinton, I think Clinton may be the safest choice, with Sanders still worth consideration.

1) Redistribution of wealth by government is theft. Legal theft, but immoral all the same. We aren't talking about providing for something basic like shelter or food. No one "needs" a two-year community college diploma.

2) The Left decries the bailouts. Government bailouts. Their solution? More government. Insanity.

3) The only guy from the Democrats or Republicans I would have voted for if I were an American was Rand Paul. He's no Ron, but he was the best of the bunch as far as I could tell.

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Feel the Bern

1) Redistribution of wealth by government is theft. Legal theft, but immoral all the same. We aren't talking about providing for something basic like shelter or food. No one "needs" a two-year community college diploma.

2) The Left decries the bailouts. Government bailouts. Their solution? More government. Insanity.

3) The only guy from the Democrats or Republicans I would have voted for if I were an American was Rand Paul. He's no Ron, but he was the best of the bunch as far as I could tell.

Re your point 1), I thought you were a 'hand up' (rather than 'hand out') sort of person. Why do you object to helping low-income people, or their children, with educational expenses? Helping someone to improve their income generating prospects, thereby reducing their reliance on government assistance programs, would be a plus in your Ayn Rand world, wouldn't it?

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Feel the Bern

1) Redistribution of wealth by government is theft. Legal theft, but immoral all the same. We aren't talking about providing for something basic like shelter or food. No one "needs" a two-year community college diploma.

2) The Left decries the bailouts. Government bailouts. Their solution? More government. Insanity.

3) The only guy from the Democrats or Republicans I would have voted for if I were an American was Rand Paul. He's no Ron, but he was the best of the bunch as far as I could tell.

1) Redistribution of wealth by speculators is theft. Legal theft, but immoral all the same. We aren't talking about accumulating for something basic like shelter or food. No one "needs" a gated 40,000 square foot mansion.

2) The Right decries government regulation. Their solution? Regulate against a woman's right to choose, against a poor person's access to affordable health care, against medical marijuana. Insanity.

3) Rand Paul.... yeah, you and everyone in ISIS would love him for President.


Not sure Tom if you are Christian like so many of the extreme right in the U.S., but when it comes to the religious right, there's two things I do remember from the New Testament of the Bible that I'm sure that group would rather forget. First, Jesus said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's". And second, although he never took any action against the government of the day, he did throw the MONEY MAKERS out of the temple.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Feel the Bern

Re your point 1), I thought you were a 'hand up' (rather than 'hand out') sort of person. Why do you object to helping low-income people, or their children, with educational expenses? Helping someone to improve their income generating prospects, thereby reducing their reliance on government assistance programs, would be a plus in your Ayn Rand world, wouldn't it?

That's an excellent question, and I am happy to answer it.

Let's say you are going to get a degree, and the degree is worth $50K to you. In other words, if you had the money or the ability to get a loan, you would be willing to pay up to $50K. You aren't willing to spend more, and like someone shopping for a car, or a house, or chicken burgers, you are price conscious. You expect value for your money and will shop around for the best value at the best price.

Now, let's say you can get a "free" education. You don't care what it costs. You are not price sensitive. You are okay if the actual cost is $100K. Since you won't argue price, those supplying the service are not likely to do what they can to cut costs. They aren't going to bill you anyway, so really what do you care? The end result is a $50K degree and $50K of waste.

There is no price discovery in government-provided services. How can there be?

P.S. A lot of people without degrees do well. If you were to exclude jobs where a degree is a strict requirement (e.g. doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc.) how beneficial on average is a degree when the cost of getting the degree is factored in? What percentage get a job in their field? If they don't end up in a job in their field why do they need the degree in the first place?

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Feel the Bern

1) Redistribution of wealth by speculators is theft. Legal theft, but immoral all the same. We aren't talking about accumulating for something basic like shelter or food. No one "needs" a gated 40,000 square foot mansion.

2) The Right decries government regulation. Their solution? Regulate against a woman's right to choose, against a poor person's access to affordable health care, against medical marijuana. Insanity.

3) Rand Paul.... yeah, you and everyone in ISIS would love him for President.


Not sure Tom if you are Christian like so many of the extreme right in the U.S., but when it comes to the religious right, there's two things I do remember from the New Testament of the Bible that I'm sure that group would rather forget. First, Jesus said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's". And second, although he never took any action against the government of the day, he did throw the MONEY MAKERS out of the temple.

1) Speculation isn't theft. Anyone who buys anything is engaged in speculation. Is this hamburger worth $10? Is this house worth $200K?

2) I am personally opposed to regulations with regard to what adults do to their own bodies. I think all drugs should be legal, not just medical marijuana, for example.

3) Why does ISIS exist? How is the Middle East a better place since 2001? Millions dead and displaced, trillions of dollars wasted.

4) I am an atheist.