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It does not hurt to count medals won by countries in Olympics where even sports differ.
Do you know the difference between team play and individual play? Counting medals from a group of individuals in an event does not make the players a team or the event a team event.
Someone in CFC has some explaining to do, why CFC did not send best possible team, when it had a multiple times to do so. Maybe discrimination is a factor, against certain players here.
Your comment is distasteful. The CFC Executive has explained fully the decisions made in this matter on this board, the CFC discussion board, and by emails. The issue was discussed at length. The CFC executive received a strong level of support from Governors and others for it's decision, which is consistent with our current rules and regulations.
The fact that you bring this up now, after the WYCC is over, is very disturbing. The chess community is tortured by petty feuds which go on endlessly by those unwilling to forgive and forget.
Can we please turn the page and look to the future?
Do you know the difference between team play and individual play? Counting medals from a group of individuals in an event does not make the players a team or the event a team event.
While it is not a team in your semantics, they became a team IMHO, those players should be more bonded now then before the event. Maybe after several years they be part of the national teams (e.g., during 2016 Olympiad in Toronto :p
Your views and actions as CFC Executive are distasteful and do not reflect what CFC was originally setup to accomplish, and that is to encourage youngest to reach new level and encourage them to complete internationally.
The chess community is actually tortured by your view, by failing to do what CFC was originally created to do. You willingness to stick to your personal agenda and unwillinless to do what chess community needs is very distasteful and disturbing.
Can we please turn the page and look to the future?
In successful world, page is turned once problem is fixed. It just does not go away, even if you try to shove under the rug. Eventually it comes backs and bite you in your face.
Unfortunately it is not the case, since the problem was not fixed and no one else to blame but CFC Executives on this one.
You mean issue was discussed in length: “Either its Mr. Gillanders way, or highway.”
What I mean is exactly what I said. The issue was discussed at length and the decision to follow the rules was upheld by the chess community. Some individuals did express sympathy with your arguments, but your appeal was denied. Your continued attack after the WYCC is over is pointless. That's all I have to say on the matter.
Last edited by Bob Gillanders; Tuesday, 29th November, 2011, 04:00 PM.
You are not allowed to have different views in his presence. :D
It would be better that you would prepare your view of a bright future (without any historical grunge) how the players should be selected and you would present it in the new thread.
What I mean is exactly what I said. The issue was discussed at length and the decision to follow the rules was upheld by the chess community. Some individuals did express sympathy with your arguments, but your appeal was denied. Your continued attack after the WYCC is over is pointless. That's all I have to say on the matter.
The appeal was denied by your truly Mr. Barron, when appeal was legitimate at the 2011 Canadian Closed. Why is that, I guess discrimination against certain players. No other legitimate reason was given, and Mr. Barron failed to reply not once, not twice, but multiple times regarding this question.
Chess Community already knows that there is no sympathy from CFC Executives regarding its young members. You stated very clear to us.
Unfortunately some CFC Executives decided not to stick to CFC original agenda and stick to its personal agenda. This is very distasteful and disturbing for chess community.
With decisions CFC taken in last year, it has ‘FAIL’ written all over it.
While it is not a team in your semantics, they became a team IMHO, those players should be more bonded now then before the event.
A classroom full of pupils can be more bonded at the end of the schoolyear but that does not make them a "team". A team is a group of people working together to reach a common goal.
At the WYCC, kids certainly had individual goals but was there a common goal on which to work with others? Was there a goal in terms of medals or top ten places or anything else ? Reading this thread makes it clear that there wasn't, otherwise no one would be satisfied with one medal. Without expectations or goals anything can be considered a "success".
There were 3 things that might have been done to challenge the executive position on your Can. WYCC team issue:
1. The advance ruling given by the executive at the time of the Pan-American YCC, that playing in the Pan-Am would not be considered an extraordinary circumstance for not playing in the CYCC, should have been appealed; it wasn't.
2. Public pressure might be raised to get the executive to review and reverse their ruling - you tried that and it failed.
3. The executive decision on Jiaxin Liu's application before the WYCC to be an extraordinary exception, which was denied on the basis of the prior advance ruling, should have been appealed. It was suggested that a motion be brought to the then pending Governors' On-line Meeting - this was not done ( admittedly the success of such motion was unclear, but the fact that no governor proceeded to bring such motion indicates the majority of the governors at least supported their decision ). Again public pressure to force a review of this decision failed.
So at the moment this ruling stands as a precedent. If someone thinks this is not a good precedent, then the thing to do, in my opinion, is for someone to initiate a motion to the governors to clarify the policy on conflicting tournament representation for the top three rated, and the Can. WYCC team criteria. This will clarify the situation for a future recurrence of the problem.
In my view this is more effective than continued sniping after the fact, which it should be clear will lead to nothing concrete.
However, the Cooperative Chess Coalition ( CCC ) intends to discuss this case from the point of view that the CFC Handbook says nothing that we can see about any appeal process, from the original advance ruling, or the later denial of the exception application. This seems to be part of the possible reason that this matter was not seen to be more clearly handled. And it may provide in the Liu case, some explanation of why appeals were not launched. We will have more to say on this in future, once we have had a more in-depth discussion on it in-house.
Bob A, CCC Coordinator
Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Tuesday, 29th November, 2011, 04:21 PM.
Hi Mikhail:
1. The advance ruling given by the executive at the time of the Pan-American YCC, that playing in the Pan-Am would not be considered an extraordinary circumstance for not playing in the CYCC, should have been appealed; it wasn't.
The appeal was made to Mr. Barron during 2011 Canadian Closed in May. It was appealed 2 months before CYCC and Pan-American YCC. was it accepted – No;
was it denied without review by Mr. Barron – Yes.
CFC Executives made this mess and keep failing to clean it up, when there was still time. Unfortunately not it’s too late.
It is the executive, not the Youth Coordinator, who makes decisions under Handbook section 1012 ( e ):
" (e) 3 top CFC rated players in each category (by January 1st of the current year) if not able to participate at CYCC due to extraordinary circumstances, and wishing to participate at WYCC, are eligible to submit to CFC their applications for participation at WYCC before the start of CYCC. CFC Executive has the right to reject the application at their discretion if applicant's circumstances are not valid and/or exceptional...."
Thus an advance ruling given in this case is given by the Executive, though the Youth Coordinator may be the one announcing it.
It is my view that what you requested at the time of the Closed, was a " review " by the executive of their advance ruling. Mr. Barron seems to have been authorized by the executive to say that the executive would not review the advance ruling.
However an " appeal " is a different matter. This is taking the decision to a different and higher body for them to confirm or reject the lower decision. It seems to me that at the time, given the lack of any appeal procedure in the Handbook, any appeal would have had to be to the governors as a whole. This was not done - and perhaps reasonably so since the appeal process is nowhere set out. And there are those governors who feel there should not even be an appeal from the executive decision in this particular case.
It is this issue that the Cooperative Chess Coalition intends to review in-house early next year. Denial of membership on a sports team nationally in other sports, usually has an appeal process that can be followed.
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