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Roger,
Take the top 10 corporations in North America and add up the number of people on their board of directors, add in a dozen people in the U.S. government and add one person for the Canadian government and you get about 140 people. .
Your North America doesn't include Mexico apparently.
Those 10 CEOs and their board of directors do not control in any meaningful way the political agenda and organization of the country. They are responsible for making widgets for their particular company. End of story.
On the political side you count 1 (!) for Canada? Presumably given your other rants you mean Harper, someone who can lose power in any election. I guess all those provincial premiers and mayors of large cities report directly to the prime minister in your world? Americans are controlled by 12 people? I guess those 12 people are an even 6 Democrats and 6 Republicans otherwise the US would have agreed on what their health care system would look like by now. Not much coordination there.
You are living in some kind of conspiracy delusional world of your own imagination.
No. The war measures act, which has since been rewritten, was enacted by the Prime Minister and he called in the military.
From what I'm reading, the Quebec premier is suspending classes until August. It's too bad for the students who want to attend classes.
I read a terror charge has been added for the subway smoke affair.
There are also many other regulations. For instance, gatherings of at least 10 people must be justified (protests must be planned in advance with police).
The Governement now also has the right to revocate court orders on the student conflict.
Last edited by Felix Dumont; Thursday, 17th May, 2012, 11:29 PM.
There are also many other regulations. For instance, gatherings of at least 10 people must be justified (protests must be planned in advance with police).
The Governement now also has the right to revocate court orders on the student conflict.
When I wanted to hold a picnic for a large group of computer nerds who frequented the bulletin boards, and make hambergers and hot dogs, I had to buy a park permit. The gathering had to be justified and acceptable to get the permit.
If you don't like the government vote for a different one. I find they all say the same thing when they are in opposition and they do the same thing when the become the government.
A friend sent me this clip. I thought it was worth sharing.
Are you on Facebook, Bob? It might be free but the capitalists are making a fortune on it today.
I've often wondered why people who are against the leaders in society and their success financially so often strive to become leaders of organizations. Striving to be the top 1 percent of whatever it is they choose to involve themselves. Is it easier to tear apart an organization from within than from the outside?
I don't understand it so maybe you might be able to tell me.
Last edited by Gary Ruben; Friday, 18th May, 2012, 04:47 PM.
You're not very familiar with how activists work are you? Let me give you a hint. They work much like your beloved OCA. No minutes, no accountability, no formal organization per se but you are welcome to join them anytime you like. And if you ask them they are all doing a great job.
If you seriously think the OWS movement is going to organize themselves along the lines of OWS Inc. like a corporation you have seriously missed the point. [my bold]
They will next turn up at any G20 or similar meeting dressed in black to bash everything in sight.
Actually, that was my point: the OWS 'movement' is *not* organized. There is no OWS Central, no executive committee or board of directors, no agreed platform, etc.
You haven't been reading the press then, the corporate media or the aternative media then. It is not violence that equates the two things, although both have violence. It is the ideological links and the fact that many commentators, OWS and student activists have openly stated that this is part of one broader movement. The same minds that brought you OWS have brought you the student movement.[my bold] Why do you think the student groups want Quebec universities to no longer engage in reasearch because it 'only profits corporations'. Even at a very basic level who is more part of the 99% than students?
You may or may not like the Quebec student situation but it is part and parcel of the OWS movement.
And I didn't understand why you felt there was any provable connection between the two. The one, OWS, seems to be some kind of unorganized social phenomenon (as Naomi Klein characterized it: a "howl" against social injustice), and the other, the Quebec student movement, seems to be, to a significant extent, a bunch of spoiled kids who don't seem to know when they've 'got it good.'
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
And I didn't understand why you felt there was any provable connection between the two. The one, OWS, seems to be some kind of unorganized social phenomenon (as Naomi Klein characterized it: a "howl" against social injustice), and the other, the Quebec student movement, seems to be, to a significant extent, a bunch of spoiled kids who don't seem to know when they've 'got it good.'
I haven't been following it super-closely (we have enough upcoming education problems in Ontario to worry about! ) however my initial reaction to the reports of links between the student movement and the OWS movement was that the students were trying to piggyback on it so as to gain some mainstream support.
I've often wondered why people who are against the leaders in society and their success financially so often strive to become leaders of organizations. Striving to be the top 1 percent of whatever it is they choose to involve themselves.
You could'nt criticize something without first replacing it with yourself, the critic only comes after. (is how one who behaves like that operates)
Last edited by Claude C; Friday, 18th May, 2012, 11:20 PM.
Reason: sorry about that
Actually, that was my point: the OWS 'movement' is *not* organized. There is no OWS Central, no executive committee or board of directors, no agreed platform, etc.
You had said this in an earlier post:
And I didn't understand why you felt there was any provable connection between the two. The one, OWS, seems to be some kind of unorganized social phenomenon (as Naomi Klein characterized it: a "howl" against social injustice), and the other, the Quebec student movement, seems to be, to a significant extent, a bunch of spoiled kids who don't seem to know when they've 'got it good.'
Just because they are not organized along the lines of what you would consider organized does not mean there is not an ideology or viewpoint in common. It also does not mean that there are not significant overlaps including members and objectives in the two groups. OWS has a definite ideology and the Quebec student rioters share that ideology. The ideology may be painted with a broad brush but it is definitely there. I really don't think you'e had any experience reading activist literature. You are aware at least I hope that there is a significant OWS movement in Quebec? Yet for you they can't be the same people?
I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. Do you think we will see headlines soon like: 'OWS movement denounces Quebec students strike, tells those spoiled brats to get back to class'? Almost every commentator that I've read in the mainstream media and the activist press is clear in making the connection between the two. You seem to be the only one with some reason to want to deny that. By the way, the line about them being 'spoiled kids' is offensive. I don't object to their not wanting a tuition increase or demonstrating, I only object to their violent tactics and intimidation of other students. I still believe in the constitution.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Saturday, 19th May, 2012, 12:26 AM.
Just because they are not organized along the lines of what you would consider organized does not mean there is not an ideology or viewpoint in common. ...
So state it. If you're so certain that these groups have a common ideology then state what that ideology is and where you obtained the information.
... It also does not mean that there are not significant overlaps including members and objectives in the two groups. ...
Well, the Quebec student unions likely have members (by this I mean that, if pressed to do so, each union could probably produce a list of students they each consider to be part of their respective memberships) but I defy you to produce a listing of OWS members.
... OWS has a definite ideology and the Quebec student rioters share that ideology. The ideology may be painted with a broad brush but it is definitely there. ...
Well, if it's definite then where can I find a description of the ideology that OWS definitely has and which is definitely shared by the student rioters? Is it a secret? Are you in the know? Could you pass it along to me by email if you're not comfortable setting it out here? By the way, are you using the term 'student rioters' as a way of describing only the students who have participated in acts of violence? I ask because I'm wondering if all of the striking students share the definite OWS ideology or it's only the violent striking students who share the definite OWS ideology?
.. You are aware at least I hope that there is a significant OWS movement in Quebec? Yet for you they can't be the same people? ...
You see, this is what I find a bit confusing. How can you be so certain that there is a significant OWS movement in Quebec, or anywhere else for that matter? I didn't say that OWS and the student strikers couldn't be the same people, or that there couldn't at least be some overlap between the two groups. What I asked was why you felt there was a provable connection between the two?
... I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. Do you think we will see headlines soon like: 'OWS movement denounces Quebec students strike, tells those spoiled brats to get back to class'? ...
Actually, I wasn't trying to prove anything. And I don't think I said anything that should make you think I'm expecting headlines like the one you set out.
... Almost every commentator that I've read in the mainstream media and the activist press is clear in making the connection between the two. You seem to be the only one with some reason to want to deny that. ...
Oh-oh. I'm the only person in Canada (North America?? the WORLD????) who missed the point?? Well this is certainly embarrassing. :o
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
So state it. If you're so certain that these groups have a common ideology then state what that ideology is and where you obtained the information.
Well, the Quebec student unions likely have members (by this I mean that, if pressed to do so, each union could probably produce a list of students they each consider to be part of their respective memberships) but I defy you to produce a listing of OWS members.
Well, if it's definite then where can I find a description of the ideology that OWS definitely has and which is definitely shared by the student rioters? Is it a secret? Are you in the know? Could you pass it along to me by email if you're not comfortable setting it out here? By the way, are you using the term 'student rioters' as a way of describing only the students who have participated in acts of violence? I ask because I'm wondering if all of the striking students share the definite OWS ideology or it's only the violent striking students who share the definite OWS ideology?
Not a whole lot. Could you suggest some good pamphlets?
You see, this is what I find a bit confusing. How can you be so certain that there is a significant OWS movement in Quebec, or anywhere else for that matter? I didn't say that OWS and the student strikers couldn't be the same people, or that there couldn't at least be some overlap between the two groups. What I asked was why you felt there was a provable connection between the two?
Actually, I wasn't trying to prove anything. And I don't think I said anything that should make you think I'm expecting headlines like the one you set out.
Oh-oh. I'm the only person in Canada (North America?? the WORLD????) who missed the point?? Well this is certainly embarrassing. :o
You're being deliberately obtuse pretending to be the slowest person at the back of the class aren't you? However, I have neither the time nor the inclination to try to educate you from ground zero as to what the OWS movement and Quebec student riots are all about. If you really don't know I can only assume you have been living in a cave somewhere to save money on housing. I suggest you talk to Bob A or G about having lunch. Both are very knowledgeable about either OWS or Quebec or both. For the price of lunch you could learn alot from them. Perhaps they have some literature they could bring with them.
If you really don't know I suggest you take some basic steps to educate yoursef and then perhaps we can engage in some kind of discussion. It's hard to have any kind of serious discussion with someone who has a complete lack of knowledge. It would be like trying to play chess with you when you don't even know how the pieces move.
In a nutshell if you are able to use google you may find several media reports on the OWS movement in Quebec. I already gave one example of the common ideology regarding university reserach but you choose to ignore that. I'd like to give you a whole bunch of links to this site or that site but something tells me you can use google if you really try. Here's another clue, when you do your searching find a dictionary site because when I say rioters I mean rioters. When you call them spoiled brats what exactly do you mean by that? I already made it quite clear that I support the right to demonstrate and the constitution. As much as I'd like to prepare an academic paper discussing all of this complete with extensive research, references, footnotes, interviews with participants, perhaps even a trip to Montreal to observe first hand, I don't have a course right now that I would be able to submit this for. Perhaps in future when I do a master's in public policy, I'll let you know. Of course I could produce such a thing on Chesstalk ala Paul Beckwith's independent opus on the editing style of an unmentioned Chesstalker, but that's a bit too much don't you think?
And yes I'm perfectly happy to make my comments public. I have no need nor have I ever considered sending you or anyone else any little private confidential side notes.
I am glad to see though that you are not an OWS supporter. Your opinion of them must be even lower than mine when you don't even feel they have been able to get any kind of message across. Although personally if I didn't know as much as you didn't know about the movement I wouldn't be waving my lack of knowledge about in public as you are. Again call Bob A or G, operators are standing by. With Bob A you will also have the chance to perhaps learn more about the NDP.
and yes you are the only person I know or have read about that is trying to prove there is no common ideology or connection between these two things, are you the only one in Canada? North America? the World? No idea as I don't know everyone in any of those places. I'm sure there is someone out there who shares your viewpoint, I however have only been lucky enough to be acquainted with you. Perhaps you can provide us with reference to them. Until then I'm still of the opinion your's is at best a fringe opinion. Nor do I quite fathom why you feel a need to prove this point. Maybe you support the Quebec student demands and don't want them sullied with the OWS movemement connection?
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Sunday, 20th May, 2012, 01:30 AM.
Now that things have been heating up (over 500 arrests in one night), I'm surprised that the discussion here has gone off the burner. Due to accidental circumstances, the only CBC TV we can get is Radio Canada, which of course has the best coverage of the student / tuition / constitutional matter. In the news item where many groups are opposing Law 78, they were interviewing two young man, a young woman, and an old guy (like me but with less hair). I never got the hang of the accent and just failed to understand the two young men. The young woman, a bit better. Among the things she said was that 500 lawyers had volunteered to donate their time. That's an impressive number. The old guy I understood quite well unless he got angry. One thing he said that I got in particular was his opposition to the Provincial Government's use of the law to gain political ends by (mis-) use of judicial means.
You might think it is unfair of me to point this out from almost 2,300 miles away (as the crow flies, further by land and water), but this is an exciting and possibly historical moment. Did M.Charest overplay his cards? Oops, this is chesstalk. Did M.Charest overextend his mighty pawn centre? Somehow Mr. Harper, who is doing a lot more than raising some fees, is completing his coup relatively unscathed.
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) however my initial reaction to the reports of links between the student movement and the OWS movement was that the students were trying to piggyback on it so as to gain some mainstream support.
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